Testing under new vs old regs

Hi guys,

Long time lurker, first time poster.

I have been approved to test under old regs. What is the difference and are there any benefits to opting to test under new regs?

Thanks!

Depends on what license. Pretty sure for engine licenses there was no difference but with deck licenses there was.

It’s an engine license.

With military sea time I was approved to test for 1AE. I have very limited availability to get to the REC to test so I need to pass with no retakes. Should I eat humble pie and try to test for 2AE instead and potentially work up to 1AE? At this point in time it’s more important for me to obtain the credential than to get the 1AE vs 2AE.

I have a brand new baby at home and it’s cramping my free time to study (boo hoo right?) however it is important to me to obtain this license.

[QUOTE=makingway;188734]Should I eat humble pie and try to test for 2AE instead and potentially work up to 1AE? [/QUOTE]

If your first job on a civilian ship is as 1st or even 2nd I think you will receive very large servings of humble pie anyway.

For your own good and that of your shipmates I hope you start as a baby 3rd and adjust over an extended period to what you will find is a totally different culture.

[QUOTE=makingway;188734]

I have a brand new baby at home and it’s cramping my free time to study (boo hoo right?) however it is important to me to obtain this license.[/QUOTE]

I got my best studying at work…on watch if things were quiet, and off watch. Its hard to squeeze studying in at home with kids I hear ya.
Be positive, patient and stick with it. Many of us including myself managed to get through it and so will you.

Take the test for 2nd and start as a baby 3rd. You will be in for culture shock.

Thanks for the input so far.

I should have added at the beginning that even if I got the 1AE, the thought of sailing as a first would never cross my mind. Definitely would go as a 3rd to cut my teeth.

I didn’t want to assume that the 2AE was easier- but it sounds like it is? Same as the 3rd assistant test? Just looking for most bang for the buck when I “cash in” my sea time but also want to be realistic. I have no boiler experience and my refrigeration is minimal. My background is electrical.

If the lower test is not significantly easier- is it worth voluntarily downgrading?

Again, thanks for all the input!

[QUOTE=makingway;188746]Thanks for the input so far.

I should have added at the beginning that even if I got the 1AE, the thought of sailing as a first would never cross my mind. Definitely would go as a 3rd to cut my teeth.

I didn’t want to assume that the 2AE was easier- but it sounds like it is? Same as the 3rd assistant test? Just looking for most bang for the buck when I “cash in” my sea time but also want to be realistic. I have no boiler experience and my refrigeration is minimal. My background is electrical.

If the lower test is not significantly easier- is it worth voluntarily downgrading?

Again, thanks for all the input![/QUOTE]

I don’t know what the risk/reward is with regards to the tests. I do know that a 1 A/E ticket is worth a lot more than a 2nd.

As far as sailing, I wouldn’t worry about the culture shock. If you’ve got right combination of people/technical skills you’ll likely do OK. If you find yourself over your head try again elsewhere or whatever. Fake it till you make it.

Remember 50% of the mariners out there working are below average.

[QUOTE=Kennebec Captain;188750]

Remember 50% of the mariners out there working are below average.[/QUOTE]

Oh no, Boss: all the kids are above average. My fairy god-chief said so.

[QUOTE=Emrobu;188753]Oh no, Boss: all the kids are above average. My fairy god-chief said so.[/QUOTE]

Yeah,everyone’s a star in their own movie.

[QUOTE=Kennebec Captain;188755]Yeah,everyone’s a star in their own movie.[/QUOTE]

Ah I see some of the references. Are you another fan of the Dunning-Kruger effect?

If you are interested this series is a good discussion of the phenomenon:
http://opinionator.blogs.nytimes.com/2010/06/20/the-anosognosics-dilemma-1/?_r=2

A simpler/ shorter piece perhaps a better start:
http://www.openculture.com/2014/12/john-cleese-on-stupidity-and-a-cornell-study.html

Not precisely the aspect of personality you were bringing up but I find it observable in daily action with large maritime organizations as any other industry. I have been wondering if or how this might relate to the old “Peter principle” (rising to your level of incompetence).

People being “too stupid to know how stupid they are” really explains a lot in certain organizations or on certain ships. Or dare I say even on certain forums.

Thanks for the link to the paper.

[QUOTE=KPChief;188761]Ah I see some of the references. Are you another fan of the Dunning-Kruger effect?

If you are interested this series is a good discussion of the phenomenon:
http://opinionator.blogs.nytimes.com/2010/06/20/the-anosognosics-dilemma-1/?_r=2

A simpler/ shorter piece perhaps a better start:
http://www.openculture.com/2014/12/john-cleese-on-stupidity-and-a-cornell-study.html

Not precisely the aspect of personality you were bringing up but I find it observable in daily action with large maritime organizations as any other industry. I have been wondering if or how this might relate to the old “Peter principle” (rising to your level of incompetence).

People being “too stupid to know how stupid they are” really explains a lot in certain organizations or on certain ships. Or dare I say even on certain forums.

Thanks for the link to the paper.[/QUOTE]

Yes, the link was the result of a “Dunning-Kruger” google search. I thought I recognized the author but not the same. The paper seems to be saying that how narcissistic someone is works as a better indicator of overconfidence.

Having read “Thinking Fast and Slow” I think the problem is the difficulty of determing if the issue at hand is inside or outside our area of expertise. Has to do with the way our brains work.

[QUOTE=Kennebec Captain;188779] I think the problem is the difficulty of determing if the issue at hand is inside or outside our area of expertise. Has to do with the way our brains work.[/QUOTE]

Yes, and [U]each[/U] persons brain as well. When I am faced with someone displaying the marine equivalent of “rubbing lemon juice on his face to make him invisible to cameras” one has to probe and find out is they are movable off that plateau. As in trying to determine if this is a case of “ignorant of” as opposed to some more fundamental level of stupidness. The relation to narcissism I will have to forego until I can read the paper.

[QUOTE=makingway;188746]I didn’t want to assume that the 2AE was easier- but it sounds like it is? [/QUOTE]

Maybe it was just me but I found the 2nds test a real bear. The 1st, and then the Cheng was a comparative piece of cake. Mind you, the relative independence of sailing 2nd is/was a great training ground.

[QUOTE=Steamer;188787]Maybe it was just me but I found the 2nds test a real bear. The 1st, and then the Cheng was a comparative piece of cake. Mind you, the relative independence of sailing 2nd is/was a great training ground.[/QUOTE]

I had the same experience. I sat for an original 2nd motor and found it more in-depth than the 1st and Chief.

I agree with Ctony.
I was able to study on the back watch while at work. I asked permission from the captain and mate. They had no problems with it as long as my chores were complete. Bite the bullet and test for 1/AE.

[QUOTE=makingway;188746]Thanks for the input so far.

I should have added at the beginning that even if I got the 1AE, the thought of sailing as a first would never cross my mind. Definitely would go as a 3rd to cut my teeth.

I didn’t want to assume that the 2AE was easier- but it sounds like it is? Same as the 3rd assistant test? Just looking for most bang for the buck when I “cash in” my sea time but also want to be realistic. I have no boiler experience and my refrigeration is minimal. My background is electrical.

If the lower test is not significantly easier- is it worth voluntarily downgrading?

Again, thanks for all the input![/QUOTE]

2nd engineer is the same test as third. 1st is the same as chief I believe.
So if you can test for 1st engineer that means you can upgrade just with seatime down the line.
Test for 2nd and if you decide to upgrade you will have to test again. Go the biggest you can go! Less testing is better.

Why would you not take the 1st test? Also, the option to just test for 1st AE may be yanked away from you in the future, and then you’ll need 1yr of sea time to qualify for it. Suck it up,study, and pass the 1st AE exams. Then go sail as a 3rd for a bit. You may be smart and have a nice range of experience and only need say 90days at see to get “acquainted with the culture”.

You have a lapware account? If you do, go to the information page after logging in and it will have a detailed explanation of some of the things (not everything) they’ve noticed have changed as well as some reports of what appears to be showing up on the new exams. The rules test no matter what will be under the new question bank. For the most part, Plant & Murphy say you won’t notice much difference. I was also approved to test under the new rules (Q), but on the deck side.

You should test for the largest license you can get. You can always take a job at a lower level if you want to get your feet wet but if the CH changes rules after you test for 3rd you may end up having to get more sea time, schools, or some other BS to get a license that you used to be qualified for. Like I used to say when I was younger, “do it today before they make it illegal tomorrow”.