Notice to Mariners - How long kept aboard?

Jolly_Tar · April 7, 2008, 5:05pm

I’ve recently switched boats. On last boat we kept a running year’s worth of NTMs aboard. New one would come in (NTM 14/08), I’d remove last year’s (NTM 14/07) from the binder. On new boat, there is a stash of NTMs going back to 2006. What is the guidance and where can I find it so it can be cited? Thanks, John sends

Capt_Lee · April 8, 2008, 3:48am

Jolly Tar- I contacted the Navigation Center this morning and they are researching it. That’s what I was told. I called three times. I am close to 100% sure it is only necessary to carry 6 months worth of NTM, but now I want to know where to find it. I have been looking but have been unable to see it in black and white. Notice to Mariners 33 CFR 66.05-30 also Local Notice to Mariners 33 CFR 72.01-5 and 72.01-10. Neither one clearly said how long they should be carried onboard. This is their web site. I also e-mailed them so hopefully I will get a response shortly. <A href="http://www.navcen.uscg.gov/lnm/]http://www.navcen.uscg.gov/lnm/</A> Also Look at 33CFR 164.70 under currently corrected and 33 CFR 164.33 Charts and publications. The number I called was 703-313-5900 That is the Navigation Information Service. If I find out anything I will let you know.

Kingfysh · April 8, 2008, 7:16am

You keep your NTM’s until a summary is published. Once you recieve the summary you can throw away all the NTM’s that it covers. Also, if you make a mistake you can download them off the internet, you can even sign up to have them emailed to you. Which I did on one ship and then just saved them all in one folder.

Capt_Lee · April 8, 2008, 8:20am

Kingfysh-We are looking for guidance not he said or that is how we always did it. Where is the guidance for Local Notice to Mariners?

Jolly_Tar · April 8, 2008, 9:40am

To clarify, I am looking for specific references to just what the requirements are. ISM audits are frequent here. Here comes the inspector and he asks “How come you only have 6 mos of NTM issues?” I say “Because CFR yadda yadda states: xyz, that’s why.” And then he wants to go to the galley cuz’ we dazzled him with details he was even interested in… Anyhoo, ALL input is welcome. John sends

Capt_Lee · April 8, 2008, 10:07am

Also, Look at 46 CFR, 97.05-Notice to Mariners and Aids to Navigation, but it does not specifically say a time frame.

Jeffrox · April 8, 2008, 10:34am

What Kingfysh writes is exactly correct and is also the “Guidance” you seek. I don’t have a NTM or a summary of same handy, but I believe the instructions are in the front of the summaries. If you hold the summary, (for a specific region), and all the subsequent NTM’s, how could any inspector question the fact that you hold ALL the corrections for ANY chart in the region you sail in? If you were sailing on on a vessel the sailed worldwide you would carry all the summaries and, (5 I think), and the subsequent NTM’s.
I also think Local NTMs also have such instructions/guidance written into them. The only time that carrying only 6 months of NTMs will be the “right answer” during an inspection is if all the charts on board are less than six month old in edition date, or a similar scenario.

Jeffrox · April 8, 2008, 1:54pm

Here’s the guidance from chapters 3 and 4 of the Bible, Bowditch- Publication 9, printed and distributed by the U.S. <A class=l onmousedown=“return clk(this.href,’’,’’,‘res’,‘1’,’’)” href="http://www.nga.mil/]National Geospatial-Intelligence Agency</A>, the same folks that produce and/or distribute charts, publications and the NTM. 
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Jeffrox · April 8, 2008, 5:19pm

I suppose if one has a reliable at-sea internet service no NTMs would need to be retained, just keep track of which NTMs are needed for which pubs and charts, then go on-line to NGAs website and download the corrections you need when you need them.

Jolly_Tar · April 8, 2008, 6:26pm

Jeffrox- I agree with everything you’ve stated. I have a friend who’s active duty Navy who also suggested the electronic route, something I am a BIG fan of. However in ALL of this there is no SPECIFIC reference or time frame. Again I agree with you, it’s certainly makes sense and could be construed as common sense, BUT with 22 years in the Navy myself AND knowing how bureaucracy works, I am STUNNED that with ALL the voluminous references at my disposal that I cannot find a specific, pointed instruction that says: "NTMs are to be retained aboard for x months or until time y" I emailed some people at NGA, we’ll see if it yields any result. Again, THANKS for the effort, research and input John sends

El_Capitan · April 8, 2008, 9:29pm

I think, Capt. Lee has the answer all are looking for, and or needing to hear. Bowditch Chapter 9 isn’t the authority on what to keep, what to use, and how long to keep it for. Stand-by for news…

Capt_Lee · April 8, 2008, 10:08pm

Jeffrox and Kinfysh- Here is the “REAL” guidance and I am still waiting for The Navigation Center to call me back so they may have even more information. Navigation and Vessel Inspection Circular NVIC- No 9-83 (And this has not been replaced or superseded). Go here and open it . It is in PDF format, you can print it and keep it on hand if needed. <A href="http://www.uscg.mil/hq/gm/nvic/index80.htm]http://www.uscg.mil/hq/gm/nvic/index80.htm</A> Subject: Coast Guard Guidance Regarding requirement for Charts and Publications Ref: (a) 33 CFR 164.33 This is the excerpt that answers our question. Under #4. Discussion Paragraph a.
The information contained in a Notice to Mariners must be obtained to insure charts and publications can be maintained and corrected to the most current level. Once corrections have been made it is the option of the Master whether to retain the Notices or Not.

El_Capitan · April 8, 2008, 10:52pm

Now that, is what I call information you can fall back on. NVIC 9-83 has several pages to it, so I would advise all of you to print a copy out, and save it for posterity’s sake. From a practical standpoint, I’ve always maintained the current year onboard, and then ordered the Summary of Corrections at it’s publication. Reason for this - Since out Government has stopped publishing on an annual basis, you may get orders to sail a new route, or call a port that you’ve never been to before. Keeping a summary onboard will let you fall back onto the prior years correction to say a Coast Pilot or Light List, and the current years NTM’s will already be onboard when that 3 year old Light List shows up from Maryland Nautical or Baker Lyman. Just my 5 centavos worth… Cheers…

Kingfysh · April 9, 2008, 9:00am

The method I mentioned above is what I was taught and saw used by multiple second mates, and used myself with good results. I understand the above USCG circular and I understand that everyone does it their own way. But, if you are preparing for a company audit or an audit from a charterer, ask them. Each charterer may have different requirements for what is corrected and how long NTM must be kept. I sailed aboard a tramp tanker that was required to correct the entire world portfolio, an almost impossible task. We just kept up with the major ports and the general charts, nonetheless we got written up for it by an auditor when a chart he pulled for a port we had never pulled into was not corrected. Anymore today the auditors have almost as much power as the USCG, lose the charter and you lose your job.

Kingfysh · April 9, 2008, 9:05am

Oh, also, if you are only keeping one years’ worth of NTM or any other set amount of NTM, you must keep enough on hand to correct the charts on hand. What happens when a chart that was published in the 80’s wears out or the cadet makes a paper airplane out of it. How could you correct a chart who’s latest edition was years ago. I don’t recall the number or name, but the general chart for the Gulf of Mexico comes to mind, ours was held together with lots of tape since no second mate wanted to take on over ten years worth of corrections…Of course that was before print on demand, which are awesome except for the paper they are printed on.

Jolly_Tar · April 9, 2008, 9:11am

EXCELLENT! Now THAT’S what I’m talking about! I have recieved an email from NGA referencing a COMNAVAIRFOR/COMNAVSURFOR INST. WHAT I would be doing on a commercial boat pointing to a NAVY instruction is beyond me, especially since I did not identify myself as retired Navy. I will follow up on the email and I am printing the Circular now for inclusion in my NTM binder. You guys ROCK! John sends

Jeffrox · April 9, 2008, 4:26pm

One shouldn’t be worried about how long to keep them but “where” to keep them - because the bottom line is you have to keep them. The NTM’s can’t be thrown out just because a certain Pub or Chart has been corrected. They are kept to correct the chart the first go around and then again if you have to get a new one because the old one wears out. I’ve even had inspector make me prove that the corrections checked off on the chart and the chart card were actually applied - I had to pull out the old NTMs and show him. If your ships contract or tasking changes in the middle of an at sea period and you are sent to new waters you’ll have to start correcting the new areas charts while you’re at sea and if there are no NTMs then I guess it’s time for shorbased office help getting the corrections or you may be lucky and have internet access at sea which might trump all of the above. If your vessel works only in the GOM then just have the Summary for that area and all the NTMs subsequent to that, it’s that simple - it covers every possibility, no regulation required. I have sailed on 2 vessels that had the whole worlds portfolios onboard - I carried all 5 Summaries and about 2 years worth of NTMs (that’s only 104 of 'em), I stowed it all under one bench locker seat, It’s not a big deal, just stay organized. If I’d have had internet access, it would have been a different story, but maybe not - remember they were going to stop printing NTMs 31 Dec 2004,and we all going to have to switch to internet downloads, I guess they decided sole reliance on the internet wasn’t such a good idea. Cheers!

El_Capitan · April 9, 2008, 8:48pm

Good Morning Jeffrox, and all you other sea mutts out there this morning! Jeff, I suppose it really does boil down to a handful of things - 1) What, if any, is the policy of the company you work for. 2) What does the old man want. 3) What do you, as Nav 2nd…or the official chart wench of your particular boat, want to do. I think I posted that in the order it needs to be, and now, I’ll say this. Most ISM/SMS systems will dictate how you’ll handle corrections, so make sure yours does, or doesn’t. If it doesn’t, and the company doesn’t have any directives, it’s really up to the gray haired, overweight, and bald(ing) guy behind the desk cursing upa storm about that freakin’ port engineer again. If no of the above pertain, do what you think is prudent. My personal view on this, and what I’ve told my 2nd’s, is make sure you have your ass covered when the man comes on the ship to check things out. I have never seen a CG or PSC Inspector look at more than half-a-dozen charts for corrections, unless he saw something that wasn’t done properly. Properly correcting charts is a must, and being cited for a violation is not out of the ordinary. We get an 835, or a 2635…guess which 2nd Mate is going to be doing safety inspections again? Get your ditty bag together, don’t procrastinate and put it off, sit down and do it religiously as soon as they come on the boat. (Hint: for all you up and coming Nav Dawg’s, do yourself a favor and convince the old man to order British Admiralty (BA) Charts for anything outside the good ol’ USA, as the correction packs are just that much nicer, and the charts get updated that much more frequently). That being said, I’ve also told one 2nd to take a portfolio of 788 charts, and weed it down to the one’s we use on a frequent basis, and “shelf”, or “inactive” the other 643. 145 charts is a lot of work to maintain. It’s a full-time job onboard a merchant ship, and that is why I say simplify it at every turn you can. Correct to date the active folio, and worry about the inactive folio when the time comes with a new edition, or a half hour in front of the computer at your next port-of-call. Should you carry a Summary of Corrections for each region you dabble in, and for each year you have charts reaching back to? I think I’d question a 2nd Mate that didn’t order the Summary when it became available. Would I keep 5 years worth of NTM’s cluttering up a filing cabinet simply for posterity’s sake? Yeah, right…like we don’t have enough paperwork to file. Shit can those nasty, partially cut up, strips of paper hanging out of them, cluttering up the nav locker, never have my boat on the cover anyway pieces of…literature…at the first possible moment. Got it? Good. Keep the current year, get rid of it as soon as you possibly can, and go electronic when the opportunity presents itself. But ECDIS is a whole other discussion…

Achiever · June 3, 2008, 1:20am

We just print the section of the NTM’s that apply to our onboard list of charts and pubs and then correct them, along with the correction cards. After that, we trash the printed NTM’s, keeping it stored electronically, with backup. If we ever need it again, we can print it out. We can also show the auditor our electronic database of stored NTM’s. If he’s really anal, we can print them all out again. Never had any problems with any auditors on this topic, and I’ve seen 'em come and go many, many times. Cheers! PS Thanks for the info on the NVIC 9-83, Capt. Lee! More ammo…

Capt_Phoenix · December 10, 2010, 9:38pm

I know I am a bit late on this thread but I wanted to point out what I consider the key line of NVIC 9-83 as it pertains to this topic.

“Once corrections have been made it is the option of the master whether to retain the Notices or not.”

NVIC 9-83 4) a

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Notice to Mariners - How long kept aboard?

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