NMC disallowing years of sea time

Maritime Topics Maritime Training & Licensing
1

I recently submitted my application to the CG for an upgrade from 3rd mate to 2nd mate. I have 2602 days sea time as Captain on limited tonnage inland vessels (825-1200 GRT), while holding a 1600 ton Master and a 3rd mate unlimited ticket earned over the past 26 years. I also have 192 days as 3rd mate on ocean unlimited tonnage vessels earned in the past year. I have all the relevant STCW endorsements plus a few optional ones.

The NMC is disallowing all of my time as Captain, and only crediting the 192 days, which puts me 168 days short. As I read the CFR’s and their checklist, any time on vessels over 100 GRT and under 1600 GRT counts up to 50% of the required time. And time on inland navigable waters counts up to 50% of the required time. So the 2602 days should equal 180 creditable days. That plus the 192 they do credit is 372 days creditable sea time, correct? Even if they took the 2602 days times 50% for limited tonnage, then times 50% again for inland waters, it would still be 650 days.

The CFR’s they referenced are 46 CFR 11.201; 46 CFR 11.402; 46 CFR 11.406 as being the reasons they won’t accept the time. 46 CFR 11.402; 46 CFR 11.406 say that it should count up to 50%, and 46 CFR 11.201 doesn’t mention sea time, that I can see.

I have asked the NMC to reconsider, and quoted the CFR’s with explanations in more detail than outlined below.

46 CFR 11.201 (I see nothing in this CFR reference that prevents me from upgrading my license based on sea time.
It talks about all the general requirements for all licenses, but not sea time.)

46 CFR 11.401(e) Service towards oceans, near coastal or STCW endorsement will be credited as follows:
(2) Service on inland waters, other than Great Lakes, that are navigable waters of the United States, may be substituted for up to 50 percent of the total service. (Yes, navigable waters)

46 CFR 11.402 (1) All the required service must be obtained on vessels of 100 GRT or more; and
(2) At least one-half the required experience must be obtained on vessels of 1,600 GRT or more. (Yes all over 100 GRT and more than 50% of required time over 1600GRT.)

46 CFR 11.406 Service requirements for second mate of ocean or near-coastal self-propelled vessels of unlimited tonnage.
(1) One year of service as officer in charge of a navigational watch on ocean self-propelled vessels while holding a license or endorsement as third mate; or (Yes, unless you don’t consider the Captain, and the only deck officer onboard to be a OICNW. Held 3rd mate license since 1983)
(2) Service in inland waters, other than Great Lakes, that are navigable waters of the United States, will be credited on a day for day basis for up to 50 percent of the required service. (Yes)

MCP-FM-NMC5-04 (01) Checklist for 2nd Mate of self propelled vessels of unlimited tonnage:
NOTE: Service towards an Oceans, or NC will be credited as follows:
2. Service on inland waters, other than GL may substitute for up to 50% of the total required service.
All required service is on vessels of 100 GRT or more AND 50% of the required service is on vessels of 1600 GRT or more. (Yes and yes)

Please tell me if I’m reading the CFR’s wrong, and if so help me understand why.

2

From your description of your sea time it sounds like you are right.

3

Get a licensing consultant!

4

[QUOTE=Ctony;183005]Get a licensing consultant![/QUOTE]

Agree. A couple hundred bucks and they fight the fight (and usually win).

5

[QUOTE=Ctony;183005]Get a licensing consultant![/QUOTE]
Licensing consultants don’t often make a difference once it has reached this point. On appeals, they make absolutely no difference, a 25-page appeal from a license consultant gets the same evaluation of the merits of the appeal as does a one-line e-mail that says “I want to appeal.”

If you disagree with the NMC’s decision, ask for a reconsideration (use that word) of their decision. If they uphold their original decision, you can then appeal to Coast Guard HQ.

[QUOTE=johnny.dollar;183010]Agree. A couple hundred bucks and they fight the fight (and usually win).[/QUOTE]

On appeals, their success rate is no higher than mariners representing themselves.

6

[QUOTE=jdcavo;183018]Licensing consultants don’t often make a difference once it has reached this point. On appeals, they make absolutely no difference, a 25-page appeal from a license consultant gets the same evaluation of the merits of the appeal as does a one-line e-mail that says “I want to appeal.”

If you disagree with the NMC’s decision, ask for a reconsideration (use that word) of their decision. If they uphold their original decision, you can then appeal to Coast Guard HQ.

On appeals, their success rate is no higher than mariners representing themselves.[/QUOTE]

From my personal experience, having a consultant made things stress free and communication was extremely quicker. He had the personal emails of folks at the nmc, so we were able to bypass the multi day waiting period for emails to go back and forth. It was well worth the couple hundred bucks I spent.
I hate to sound like a dick, but most evaluators are either trained or predetermined to assume us mariners are not interpreting requirements correctly, and/or are just ill-informed and expect more than we are entitled to. I know first hand once I hired a consultant and he went to bat for me pitching the same thing the tone from the evaluator changed pretty quickly…another way to put it is my evaluator actually started to listen and be helpful once my guy took over.

7

The purpose of hiring a licensing consultant is to package and word things correctly so there is less chance of misunderstanding when it comes to evaluation. A good one knows the jargon, the procedures, and has a solid experience of past cases. The goal is to prevent ever having to reach the appeals process.

Life wisdom. Two parties may say the exact same thing, but human nature is to agree with the one that has industry experience.

8

My thanks to everyone. As nobody is trying to explain where I’m wrong, and offering advice on how to get assistance, reconsideration, and appeal, I’m more confident in my understanding of the requirements and CFR’s.
I have respectfully requested a reconsideration with a complete explanation of how the sea time does fit into the regulations, and the relevant CFR references. If it comes to a full blown appeal, I will probably hire a consultant who has gone through this process before.
And thanks to those who sent private messages with specific recommendations/contact info on who to hire.

9

Most license consultants won’t get involved if you didn’t use them to begin with

10

Update:
Finally got a reply to my reconsideration request.

“I received the request you recently submitted to my office. Your service for the ******************************* may be credited toward your endorsement as Second Mate. Unfortunately, the sea service letter included with your application did not indicate the number of days of service after your Third Mate endorsement was issued on 21-Apr-2004. Please submit an updated service letter indicating the number of days of service after this date.”

Letter covered time as 1600 t Captain from 1999-2011. I’ve held a 3rd mate’s consistently since 1983. I called them back and was able to speak with the Legal Documents Examiner handling my case. It appears their records indicate I dropped my 3rd Mate’s license in 1999, keeping just the 1600 ton master, and added it back on in 2004. I’m not great at keeping things, but once was fairly good at it. So, I happen to have copies of each license issued from the original in 1983 through the 1999 issuance (that expired in 2004). 2004 on is missing until 2014. He said to send him copies of those, and he’ll take a look at them.

Copies sent. Fortunately I’m home at the moment, and could get them. Now to see how long it takes to get back on his desk.
Lesson is: keep copies of everything, for life.

11

[QUOTE=samat3;183431]Update:
Finally got a reply to my reconsideration request.

“I received the request you recently submitted to my office. Your service for the ******************************* may be credited toward your endorsement as Second Mate. Unfortunately, the sea service letter included with your application did not indicate the number of days of service after your Third Mate endorsement was issued on 21-Apr-2004. Please submit an updated service letter indicating the number of days of service after this date.”

Letter covered time as 1600 t Captain from 1999-2011. I’ve held a 3rd mate’s consistently since 1983. I called them back and was able to speak with the Legal Documents Examiner handling my case. It appears their records indicate I dropped my 3rd Mate’s license in 1999, keeping just the 1600 ton master, and added it back on in 2004. I’m not great at keeping things, but once was fairly good at it. So, I happen to have copies of each license issued from the original in 1983 through the 1999 issuance (that expired in 2004). 2004 on is missing until 2014. He said to send him copies of those, and he’ll take a look at them.

Copies sent. Fortunately I’m home at the moment, and could get them. Now to see how long it takes to get back on his desk.
Lesson is: keep copies of everything, for life.[/QUOTE]

This is a common problem with sea service letters. Unlike a certificate of discharge which covers a single assignment on a vessel, many service letters are written to give a total of service obtained over multiple assignments, possibly in different positions, and over a long period of time, "…served a total of 200 days as deck hand, AB, and mate on inland, near coastal, and oceans voyages from 1997 to 2010.

In this case, the issue is probably not when you held 3rd Mate, we issued it, we know that. But if your sea service letter covers a long period of time during which you held a valid 3rd Mate for a portion, and did not hold it for a portion, we have no way of knowing what portion of the total was obtained on the specific dates you held 3rd Mate. For example, if you first were issued 3rd Mate on February 2, 2010, but your sea service letter only says you had a total of 500 days from 2008 to 2012, we can’t tell how much of that 500 days was after 2/2/2010, and how much was before then. Since 2nd Mate requires service while holding 3rd Mate, it is critical to know the exact days you obtained the service, and it sounds like your letter did not break it down sufficiently.

So possibly as much or more important than keeping a copy, get service letters frequently, not just when you plan to apply for a new endorsement. And everytime you do upgrade, get a service letter up to that point, and after that, a new one that starts on the day you upgraded.

12

[QUOTE=jdcavo;183433]This is a common problem with sea service letters. Unlike a certificate of discharge which covers a single assignment on a vessel, many service letters are written to give a total of service obtained over multiple assignments, possibly in different positions, and over a long period of time, "…served a total of 200 days as deck hand, AB, and mate on inland, near coastal, and oceans voyages from 1997 to 2010.

In this case, the issue is probably not when you held 3rd Mate, we issued it, we know that. But if your sea service letter covers a long period of time during which you held a valid 3rd Mate for a portion, and did not hold it for a portion, we have no way of knowing what portion of the total was obtained on the specific dates you held 3rd Mate. For example, if you first were issued 3rd Mate on February 2, 2010, but your sea service letter only says you had a total of 500 days from 2008 to 2012, we can’t tell how much of that 500 days was after 2/2/2010, and how much was before then. Since 2nd Mate requires service while holding 3rd Mate, it is critical to know the exact days you obtained the service, and it sounds like your letter did not break it down sufficiently.

So possibly as much or more important than keeping a copy, get service letters frequently, not just when you plan to apply for a new endorsement. And everytime you do upgrade, get a service letter up to that point, and after that, a new one that starts on the day you upgraded.[/QUOTE]

If I had some C. Captain type mantra… it would be those ridiculous “sea service letters” used by the non-ship side of the industry as opposed to the handy USCG discharges that have been around forever and are available to everyone.

And yet someone is surprised when they don’t get an approval to upgrade / test response from the NMC after they sent in a sea service letter covering 13yrs. The horror!!!

13

I have letters that are that convoluted. From one three or four week hitch. A friend of mine went back to the CM three times to have his re-written.

Discharges should come back.

14

[QUOTE=catherder;183451]I have letters that are that convoluted. From one three or four week hitch. A friend of mine went back to the CM three times to have his re-written.

Discharges should come back.[/QUOTE]

Since it has been awhile for me. … no more discharges? Wow, even now, I still have all of mine… . . . I am old enough to remember the shipping commissioner coming down to sign the crew on and off . . .

15

[QUOTE=cmakin;183458]Since it has been awhile for me. … no more discharges? Wow, even now, I still have all of mine… . . . I am old enough to remember the shipping commissioner coming down to sign the crew on and off . . .[/QUOTE]

There has been no change in the vessels that are required to use Certificates of Discharge, but not every vessel has to use them. The requirements for a Certificate of Discharge are in 46 USC 10311, and who this applies to is specified in 46 USC 10301:

(1) on a voyage between a port in the United States and a port in a foreign country (except a port in Canada, Mexico, or the West Indies); or
(2) of at least 75 gross tons as measured under section 14502 of this title, or an alternate tonnage measured under section 14302 of this title as prescribed by the Secretary under section 14104 of this title on a voyage between a port of the United States on the Atlantic Ocean and a port of the United States on the Pacific Ocean.

I think in Catherder’s case, her employer (NOAA…?) is not required to use them, but in the past did use them, and they have stopped doing so.

The first time I sailed commercially as a cadet we had a shipping commissioner present when we signed on and off articles, by the time I graduated they were gone (same for seamen using public health service facilities).

16

[QUOTE=catherder;183451]I have letters that are that convoluted. From one three or four week hitch. A friend of mine went back to the CM three times to have his re-written.

[U][B]Discharges should come back.[/B][/U][/QUOTE]

They never left.

Print it out; keep the original. 2 copies go to the office.

The vessel master has no choice in signing and the company has no choice in retaining a copy and sending the other copy to NMC at a pre-determined interval.

17

[QUOTE=Johnny Canal;183461]They never left.

Print it out; keep the original. 2 copies go to the office.

The vessel master has no choice in signing and the company has no choice in retaining a copy and sending the other copy to NMC at a pre-determined interval.[/QUOTE]

I’m going to try that.

18

[QUOTE=jdcavo;183433]In this case, the issue is probably not when you held 3rd Mate, we issued it, we know that.[/QUOTE]

I think you need to go back and reread his post:

[QUOTE=samat3;183431]Letter covered time as 1600 t Captain from 1999-2011. I’ve held a 3rd mate’s consistently since 1983.[/QUOTE]

19

Update 4/26/16:

Apparently after looking at the licenses in question, the NMC realizes that their records were wrong, and I did hold a 3rd mate’s license during the period in question. I have finally been approved to test.

Yes, I was expecting to test, as I got my 3rd’s before 2002, when the CG went to the 2 test system, and changed what was on each test. Now I have to wait to get the letter at home, then to me at the ship to find out for sure which elements I’ll be tested on. Their online application status portal still gives me an error message, so I can’t find out anything there. I’m close to home, so I can meet the wife and get the letter when it arrives.

20

[QUOTE=jdcavo;183433]
So possibly as much or more important than keeping a copy, get service letters frequently, not just when you plan to apply for a new endorsement. And everytime you do upgrade, get a service letter up to that point, and after that, a new one that starts on the day you upgraded.[/QUOTE]

THE BEST ADVICE EVER IMHO! I have been shipping out for 18 years, 4 of it as unlimited ChEng. I still have all of my sea letters going back to the submarine I was stationed on while in the US Navy. I have requested new sea letters each time I had even a temporary assignment, even for a few days, if I was sailing in a “higher” billet. Each sea letter specifically has my days in each billet. My seatime is VERY easy for an evaluater to understand, and I have been approved for every upgrade I have ever applied for… I also have never tried to scam my way into an upgrade with questionable sea time.