Drilling companies require unlimited licenses. It looks to me that people that have a license to drive a taxi cab think they deserve the same pay and benefits as someone with the license to drive a truck (or whatever you folks in the south call it? a 18 wheeler?).
Its going to be worse now with those fast and easy osv licenses. Talk about license degradation. If I had a 100 ton master or that joke of a dde 4000 license I would never in a million years think I deserve the same as people who put in the effort and jumped through the extra hoops. We’re talking, nurse who cleans the bed pans vs registered nurse. What if there were two companies? One that had only the bed pan cleaning nurses and one that had only registered nurses and certified nurse practitioners? Do you think both companies would offer the same types of benefits? Both are nurses, do they deserve the same pay? Drilling companies pay more and offer more because they require more. If you don’t like it, upgrade your license and go work for a drilling company.
[QUOTE=tugsailor;158630]I stand corrected.
What I meant to say is that Alaska and Washington are “Hire (and fire) At Will” states. Of course the courts have put some minimal limitations on “At Will” employment for those willing to spend on lawyers and wait years for results which are very often unfavorable.
Interestingly, Maine is Not a right to work state, but its usually one of the bottom 5 states for wages. Except for Bath Iron Works, a couple other small defense contractors, the handful of paper mill jobs left, and a little bit of work for longshoremen, there are no decent paying jobs in Maine. Bacon Davis wages jobs (i.e., government funded dredging and construction projects) don’t pay shit in Maine because the local prevailing union wages are so pathetically low. Maine also has one of the 5 highest income taxes. Maine has a lot of mariners, but they are mostly working somewhere else. And many of them move out of state to get away from the high income tax. It does not look like unions have done much for Maine.[/QUOTE]
Washington and Alaska have among the highest percentage rates of union membership in the country,
As to Maine, I don’t know where you are getting your figures. Looks like Maine comes in at # 10 on income tax. Union workers in Maine make more then non-union. Same as most states.
[QUOTE=tugsailor;158682]In the Gulf, the drilling companies have set the standard for how mariners ought to be treated — paid training at full salary, paid travel on full salary door to door, top benefits, vacation pay, etc. etc. etc[/QUOTE]
Never heard of vacation pay on the rigs… sure never saw any when I was with Global Santa Fe either. It’s been over a decade and my memory has faded on it, but I’m pretty sure I never had paid training at my day rate either. You got a company name for this golden drilling company you speak of? Yes, there was paid travel, decent benefits, but my quality of life improved ten-fold when I came over to the dark side and started working for a boat company. Maybe things are different, but we’ve got a few folks on here that can speak up as to the veracity of this.
[QUOTE=Fraqrat;158678]
So is it against the Union contract to tie up and lay off 3 boat crews to offset the expense of the guaranteed benefits? If Union tug jobs are the way to go is it safe to assume there have never been hard times and layoffs in that industry?
[/QUOTE]
I will try to clarify it for you ; Slow downs as we'll as booms are a cycle familiar to the GOM. When the slow downs come, who is chosen to stay? Got two mariners, one of them knows he does not know everything but is proactive to self identify those weak areas. Then takes the personal initiative to professional development to improve, that same mariner is also proactive and prudent. The other is reactive, won't do anything to develope professionally, at least not until the Jeaux Boss all but forces him to, but he is from the bayou. Oop gotta get rid of the professional guy...Can't have proactive professionalism in the GOM what are ya crazy? It just isn't in Jeaux's DNA to treat his "boat trash" like real modern American employees. How can any "true" professional mariner go to the GOM and prove how good he is ? The evaluation has to go through the illiterate coon-ass.Yes I’m sure they’re all great people. I’m from Alabama so maybe my reading comprehension is not on par with all you fellas from up north and out west. Based on what I read here the picture being painted is all east/west coast tug companies share all their profits equally amongst the employees. It also appears that it is a combination of the owners benevolence and the unions awesomeness that you all get pampered with all the great pay, job security and benefits. It also sounds as if there was a downturn that the owners will personally cut each employee a check to pay off their mortgage as that is the right thing to do. I further am to understand that no east/west coast tug company owner lives a flashy lifestyle they all live in trailers and drive 10 year old used cars. I still haven’t seen anyone mention each employee gets a free trip to Vegas on the company jet but maybe that is just implied and I don’t know any better. It wasn’t mentioned but I’m sure each crew member at all towing companies received an Easter basket this morning containing a Faberge egg. I’m being a smart ass but let’s be honest it’s not all rainbows and unicorns where y’all work either. The larger point is if there is no work for the boat there is no money for crew. Regardless of a tug, OSV or drillship people will be sent home, schedules changed, demotions, paycuts or some combination there of. You are also correct the Chouest 401k match was shady as fuck but I don’t work there so I can’t complain.
Another point being made is hiring practices are horrible down here. During the recent hiring binge resumes were read, phone calls returned, appointments made and emails answered. They did Skype interviews, went to job fairs and visited all the academies. I don’t work for other outfits so I don’t know their hiring practices. Not all companies have the oft mentioned horrible hiring process. As others have pointed out people were rushing down here for the big bucks and there were lines in the reception area all the way to the parking lot. Would you buy plane tickets if all you had to do is walk out to the parking lot and have your pick of eager potential employees? Maybe not all calls or emails were returned but do you have any idea what the average day in a recruiting department was like? Imagine showing up at your office with a line at the door of people with appointments and twice as many people without. Then imagine ten times that many furiously working the phones and emails looking for a job. The drilling companies can be more selective as I’m sure they were not hiring at the same volume as the OSV operators. Until this recent downturn we had paid training including travel to and from. Depending on the necessity of said class it could have been door to door or some combination of travel, lodging, dayrate percentage, and per diem. Things have changed down here and not all companies are the same. If you want to attract top talent then you have to step up your game or be stuck with the rejects.
If there is no shit sandwich being handed out at any towing company I’d keep that to myself. It appears y’all are all working in Shangri-La and shouldn’t let the secret out.
I don’t know who you were working for and I hate you had a bad experience. I can understand where you’re coming from. Having only sailed SIU I base all unions solely on my experience from Piney Point trainee until finally not folding and buying a job from crooked patrolmen. I also understand why c.scooter has so much vitriol for all things oilfield related. Everyone I know upgrades at every opportunity and helps the other guys prepare as well. I also hate to tell you but 2/3 of my crew fly in from Cali to NH. This is not an isolated occurrence as most of the fleet is like this. If they laid off all the super smart “outsiders” why would so many be up in arms about recent travel policy changes. You are painting with to broad a brush as c.scooter is prone to do. You seem like a smart guy it would be a shame for people to start paying you no mind like they do him most of the time.
[QUOTE=pwrmariner;158650]Who said I was sent home ? For your FYi , I am WORKING. I have employment ! If my posts about the particular breed of shadiness found most prevalent with the “joe bosses” of Louisiana affends you. Tough sh!T !!
Yes there is “joe boss” everywhere, however they seem to have scour the earth for the most unethical, incompetent, unintelligent, breed of scum of “joe bosses” and put them in one place otherwise known as Louisiana.[/QUOTE]
It’s clear from the constant bitching it’s no longer in the GOM. Get over it, I know a number of “professional mariners” from “north of I-10” who are still employed. Not only that, they’re masters and chiefs!!! Oh my!
Good points Fraqrat.
I think a while ago, before things expanded so big down in the GOM, they were very anti-outsider, in general.
I was out there in 2009, and at the little bayou company I worked for, everyone was way cool to me.
Sure, I got razzed a little because I’m from california…but hell californians deserve to be razzed.
All this bickering back and forth is over the top. I’ve been union before…and one would validate that I should despise unions, due to my personal experiences. However I am completely neutral. I’d go union again if it was the right gig. I grew up in a union household.
No job is perfect, everyone is expendable and union protection only goes so far.
Fraq, I have to say, that of all the many companies that I visited in Louisiana, HOS was by far the most professional, best organized, and displayed the most courtesy.
Whatever happened to the “working is a privilege” mentality? It’s the way I operate. Sure I could come back to the boat just to find out I don’t have a spot anymore, but at the same time I could leave the boat only not to come back. It’s a two way street. What if “Joe Boss” never made the gamble? Then what would all of us do? We wouldn’t have a job, or we would be forced to make one as they did.
The way I see it, north, south, east, west, non-union, or union, you get what you put in. Yes, work is an unfortunate necessary, and I’m sure all of us have much better things to do. But this entitlement mentality about pay and work is what’s wrong with America these days. Honestly, just because I bake a pie, I have to give you a piece? Bullshit, this fat kid is gonna eat the whole thing! Now if you helped bake it, you get some.
Maybe I have a misconstrued view of things, but at least it works for me. We can all be feed the proverbial shit sandwich, union or not, but then again we could all be doing something else, like sitting in a cardboard box under the overpass.
We all need work, that’s the end point. Unless you’re gonna create jobs and evenly disperse your profits with every employee, you best get to work and quit expecting to get paid for nothing.
Now on a side note, why are we bashing one another for the steps we’ve taken for employment? We should be happy for the guy next to us thy he got up off his ass and did what he deemed necessary to have an income. Everyone’s different, choices are different. You do you, and I’ll do me.
[QUOTE=pwrmariner;158677]Ha ha ha it is not just ME ![/QUOTE]
you certainly are correct there. there are many who see the reality of the GoM ways…they certainly are not a pretty sight nor have a very pleasant smell.
I am just very glad that I am now able to take a backseat role as a supporter than as a leader to the cause of bringing enlightenment to the unwashed masses. My thanks to all those willing to speak openly and freely to this issue. It needs to be put forth under a spotlight because what happens in the GoM has an effect through the remainder of the industry. The very last thing us who are not of the GoM culture is to see it spread into other areas of the country vis. Alaska.
I doubt the Gulf will ever change since there are not enough mariners willing to force change to occur but a line must be drawn somewhere.
[QUOTE=tugsailor;158628]The difference is that Longshoremen have one powerful union that controls an entire coast, without any competing unions underbidding them. Mariners just have the AMO, SIU, MMP, and Local 5000 competing with each other in a race to the bottom.[/QUOTE]
The race to the bottom will accelerate with glut of debt ridden unemployed mariners. Management will use this down cycle as an ax for any new contract negotiations. I’ve seen it in a few cycles in my career. The worst was mid '80s and this one potentially will be of greater amplitude.
[QUOTE=Rain Wizard;158701]Now on a side note, why are we bashing one another for the steps we’ve taken for employment? We should be happy for the guy next to us thy he got up off his ass and did what he deemed necessary to have an income. Everyone’s different, choices are different. You do you, and I’ll do me.[/QUOTE]
we bash each other because even though we are all in the same profession, we have distinctly different mindsets when it comes to employment. There are those here who believe that labor inherently does not have rights or at least not many rights nor much to expect from the employer so when you are paid well, you consider your employer to be a great benefactor and yourselves his beneficiaries because he has paid you more than you would have demanded…you are clearly one of those.
Then there of us here who believe that labor does have rights beyond only than the renumeration given …rights such as a safe work place, reasonable hours, adequate benefits…but most importantly, the right to be respected by the employer because without us workers, the employer would not be in business. In our case, we have to earn certification from the USCG which places us in a unique position to expect respect because in very few cases does the management of the companies we serve also have the same certification as us? What major OSV company has any certified mariner in a senior management position?
something to think about
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[QUOTE=injunear;158709]The race to the bottom will accelerate with glut of debt ridden unemployed mariners. Management will use this down cycle as an ax for any new contract negotiations. I’ve seen it in a few cycles in my career. The worst was mid '80s and this one potentially will be of greater amplitude.[/QUOTE]
this down cycle has been likened by many as being very similar in cause to the mid 80’s crash. High energy prices led to many new sources of oil being developed and then all hitting the market at about the same time and without huge increases in demand, the supply went rapidly into huge surplusses. Didn’t the 80’s bust take almost 10 years for oil to get back to the price it was before the bubble popped?
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[QUOTE=c.captain;158702]you certainly are correct there. there are many who see the reality of the GoM ways…they certainly are not a pretty sight nor have a very pleasant smell.
I am just very glad that I am now able to take a backseat role as a supporter than as a leader to the cause of bringing enlightenment to the unwashed masses. My thanks to all those willing to speak openly and freely to this issue. It needs to be put forth under a spotlight because what happens in the GoM has an effect through the remainder of the industry. The very last thing us who are not of the GoM culture is to see it spread into other areas of the country vis. Alaska.
I doubt the Gulf will ever change since there are not enough mariners willing to force change to occur but a line must be drawn somewhere.[/QUOTE]
I guess having people kissing your ass makes that butt-hurt feel a little better, Scooter.
[QUOTE=c.captain;158711]In our case, we have to earn certification from the USCG which places us in a unique position to expect respect because in very few cases does the management of the companies we serve also have the same certification as us? What major OSV company has any certified mariner in a senior management position?[/QUOTE]
cough Jackson Offshore cough
Don’t work for them myself, so I can’t speak as to whether it makes a difference, but they have more than one in senior management. While they may not be major yet, they’re definitely on the up and coming list.
I can remember when captains of GOM boats toss pennies onto the decks of the boat. Just to gauge if the deckhand was actually doing sanitary. At first I thought that was horribly practice setting one up to fail. However day after day, week after week those same pennies were still on the deck. One deckhand would leave and the next one would come and oh did the captain and crew boasts about the “new” deckhand. This guy is bad ass, you can eat off the deck with this guy. But again day after day, week after week those same pennies still never got off the deck. Neither deckhand was worth a shit, but one was talked about as though he was …While the other bashed. Since Jeaux Boss never comes to see for himself, just makes employment retention decisions based on the lies he receives from the boat. That same practice, goes on at all ranks in varying degree, in the GOM. While the scenario will be different at different levels of rank, the deceitful ways are repeated.
With the words from c.captain " Then there of us here who believe that labor does have rights beyond only than the renumeration given …rights such as a safe work place, reasonable hours, adequate benefits…but most importantly, [U][/U][I][/I][B]the right to be respected by the employer because without us workers, the employer would not be in business.[/B] In our case, we have to earn certification from the USCG which places us in a unique position to expect respect because in very few cases does the management of the companies we serve also have the same certification as us? What major OSV company has any certified mariner in a senior management position? "
c.captain’s words " unique position to expect respect " Now mine; It is respect so EARNED, due to our level of licensing ! Not a sense of entightlement !!!
GOM mariner know the industry has cycles up and down, and there will be another UP cycle. When that UP cycle comes, who will come back to the GOM boats ? If the Jeaux Boss’s don’t change, they will have a self-inflicted shortage of mariners. Sure the unqualified and barely qualified will line the parking lot and bog down the phones, e mails,…
[QUOTE=AHTS Master;158712]I guess having people kissing your ass makes that butt-hurt feel a little better, Scooter.[/QUOTE]
didn’t say it before and ain’t saying it again
[QUOTE=c.captain;158711]this down cycle has been likened by many as being very similar in cause to the mid 80’s crash. High energy prices led to many new sources of oil being developed and then all hitting the market at about the same time and without huge increases in demand, the supply went rapidly into huge surplusses. Didn’t the 80’s bust take almost 10 years for oil to get back to the price it was before the bubble popped?[/QUOTE]
When I started in '70, the business was in a slump. We were moving a lot of equipment to Canada, North Sea, Med, Africa, Alaska and South America. A fantastic job for a teenager. In the final year of the Carter admin, with the high gas prices things got crazy. Morgan City was booming. The influx of unemployed from the rust belt to LA was massive. Crime shot up so bad that they came up with a “St Mary’s Parrish Itinerant labor Identification Card”. It was ruled unconstitutional and offered $10 to buy them back. I still have mine. “Coonass work visa”. The companies overbuilt and the CG gave licenses away when the shortage of qualified mariners were driving up wages. With the surplus of “tear-sheet licenses” and the slump mid '80s, the 333 strike was over-run with these “highly qualified” licensees. The towing industry hasn’t recovered. The only thing that will not drag the tugs down so fast this time is the TOAR requirement.
It was longer that 10 years to reach the bubble. I’d say a bumpy ride from '95 till 2014 to reach the zenith.
[QUOTE=jbtam99;158713]cough Jackson Offshore cough[/QUOTE]
ok…we have one (who is going to be likely bankrupt anyway)
[QUOTE=c.captain;158717]ok…we have one (who is going to be likely bankrupt anyway)[/QUOTE]
No comment, but Rigdon is the man behind the curtain there… so read it as you will for how long they may or may not last. Nice boats though.
no shit, but they don’t run around like Gary does or sponsor nascar teams like Shane. I’m not shitting on your company as its public and answers to thousands of shareholders.
Genesis which is a southern company is probably one of the most organized tug companies to work for. Non-Union. Same for Kirby, although many boats are Union.
I don’t care Union/not union as it doesn’t factor into my opinion. Like you, I have seen shit sandwiches on both sides. I just feel I have a good relationship with my employer and having been through downturns here know how they will handle them. Fucking with my 401k, or firing people you for petty issues is not how they roll; they have the balls to walk down to the boat and send a few people home by whatever system already determined. I have been laid off in fantasy land myself and was glad they stuck to seniority rather than arbitrarily laying off whoever they wanted.
There’s no illusion that Morty Bouchard or Craig Reinauer will send everyone a magic check, enough with that. Probably since the companies are smaller we tend to have a personal relationship with ownership at least at the management level.
HOS is the one company I talked to and seriously considered going to. I chose not to because of intangibles where I am that I would be giving up in exchange for more money there. I’ve dealt with ECO and just have a sour taste in my mouth from them. Don’t think that I’m personally shitting on HOS chief.