[QUOTE=Kennebec Captain;187182]I’ve seen a lot of captains try to ignore problems hoping they go away but in my view that’s the wrong approach. Lay the ground work early then take care of business when it’s time.
Taking steps to increase crew effectiveness is just good seamanship.[/QUOTE]
I just know that you need a keener of an engine cadet on this effective, seaworthy crew. True, ennit?
[QUOTE=Evergreenmonster;187075]I’ve got no experience seafaring yet, and I’m concerned about what would happen if I was stuck at sea with someone who had it out for me. During basic training in the Army a couple of guys would intentionally smack me to wake me up at night, so I’d get no sleep at all. In that situation there seemed to be nothing I could do since the Sargeants didn’t care. Is there anything that prevents abusive behavior among crew members?[/QUOTE]
In that case what didn’t kill you made you stronger since you’re obviously still alive. In any organization there’s about 20% that will push people around or belittle them to make themselves look better and try to establish their authority, another 20% will try to do the right thing every time and the remaining 60% just follow one of the aforementioned 20% . Seafaring is just a job like any other; you learn your trade and do your best until such time as you are deemed qualified to accept more responsibility. Whether you are starting out on Wall St or the bilge of a ship the rules are the same. Learn your job and make sure you don’t team up with the wrong 20% because …karma.
there’s no karma. and no, seafaring isn’t a job like any other. not at all.
when you report it do it in an email
if it continues you will get a hell of a payout from the company that fails to ensure you have a safe working environment.
the dumb asses at sea think the law on the land doesnt apply to them, probably dont even know there is any.
[QUOTE=Emrobu;187187]I just know that you need a keener of an engine cadet on this effective, seaworthy crew. True, ennit?[/QUOTE]
Well, effective and seaworthy is really more of a goal than an accomplishment. Like the old-timer says, “some days are better then others”. But, yeah, come ride with me, we can use all the help we can get.
[QUOTE=tengineer1;187189]In that case what didn’t kill you made you stronger since you’re obviously still alive. In any organization there’s about 20% that will push people around or belittle them to make themselves look better and try to establish their authority, another 20% will try to do the right thing every time and the remaining 60% just follow one of the aforementioned 20% . Seafaring is just a job like any other; you learn your trade and do your best until such time as you are deemed qualified to accept more responsibility. Whether you are starting out on Wall St or the bilge of a ship the rules are the same. Learn your job and make sure you don’t team up with the wrong 20% because …karma.:)[/QUOTE]
That’s about right, 20%. I figure with a new crew I’ve got one or two crew members that are going to be a problem. On a lot of ships the senior officers are too complacent to do anything about it, figuring they have enough margin and that the crew can cope and accept that everything from day to day operations to emergency response will be sufficient even while the crew deals the problem crew members.
In my view that’s the wrong approach. Lay the groundwork before they arrive so they know right away their bullshit is not acceptable.
The department heads have to be involved. C/M and C/E should know what’s happening in their departments. That’s what? 6 or 7 crewmembers where I am. If the department heads can’t handle/contain/fire one asshole they are not qualified to sail at that level.
A lot of chiefs like to sit in their office and ignore crew problems while the C/M is too busy telling the captain what he wants to hear. That’s the root of the problem, piss poor management.
I hear people say they worry about blowback, lawsuits etc. Sweet jebus, if someone is too fucking stupid to figure out how to discipline a crewmember without getting in trouble themselves then they have no business sailing as senior officers.
[QUOTE=Kennebec Captain;187201]In my view that’s the wrong approach. Lay the groundwork before they arrive so they know right away their bullshit is not acceptable.[/QUOTE]
I agree; there is loads of research showing that even just a couple of toxic employees (especially in a confined work environment such as a ship) can have a significant effect on productivity. Workplace ‘culture’ starts with the tone at the top. At the end of the day, getting rid of the cancer is beneficial for the entire system.
[QUOTE=powerabout;187196]when you report it do it in an email
if it continues you will get a hell of a payout from the company that fails to ensure you have a safe working environment.
the dumb asses at sea think the law on the land doesnt apply to them, probably dont even know there is any.[/QUOTE]
Nothing like a paper trail to prove your case.
[QUOTE=Kennebec Captain;187201]
The department heads have to be involved. C/M and C/E should know what’s happening in their departments. That’s what? 6 or 7 crewmembers where I am. If the department heads can’t handle/contain/fire one asshole they are not qualified to sail at that level.
A lot of chiefs like to sit in their office and ignore crew problems while the C/M is too busy telling the captain what he wants to hear. That’s the root of the problem, piss poor management.
I hear people say they worry about blowback, lawsuits etc. Sweet jebus, if someone is too fucking stupid to figure out how to discipline a crewmember without getting in trouble themselves then they have no business sailing as senior officers.[/QUOTE]
I couldn’t agree more. In my years sailing as C/M I had some opposite type situations with the old man though. I’d keep my ear to the deck and report the things he probably didn’t want to hear and he in turn would ignore the problems. I learned a lot about what not to do when I got my own command, but man was it frustrating.
I like to let my department heads as well as senior unlicensed know that most problems should try to be dealt with below decks unless it is something like blatant harassment or assault. I’ve had very few voyages that there wasn’t at least one “problem child.” The key is to recognize it early, isolate it, document it, and move on if there is no improvement.
[QUOTE=DamnYankee;187232]I couldn’t agree more. In my years sailing as C/M I had some opposite type situations with the old man though. I’d keep my ear to the deck and report the things he probably didn’t want to hear and he in turn would ignore the problems. I learned a lot about what not to do when I got my own command, but man was it frustrating.
I like to let my department heads as well as senior unlicensed know that most problems should try to be dealt with below decks unless it is something like blatant harassment or assault. I’ve had very few voyages that there wasn’t at least one “problem child.” The key is to recognize it early, isolate it, document it, and move on if there is no improvement.[/QUOTE]
Good point, the chain could be broken at any level.
The important thing I think is that the crew understands that hassling someone trying to do their job is unacceptable. If a crew member wishes to make a report and one commuication route is cut off another route should be available by skipping that link if necessary.
I do prefer that I not hear of shipboard problems from shoreside. In that case I just turn in to an observer and errand boy as they try to solve a problem they don’t understand.
[QUOTE=Kennebec Captain;187248]Good point, the chain could be broken at any level.
The important thing I think is that the crew understands that hassling someone trying to do their job is unacceptable. If a crew member wishes to make a report and one commuication route is cut off another route should be available by skipping that link if necessary.
I do prefer that I not hear of shipboard problems from shoreside. In that case I just turn in to an observer and errand boy as they try to solve a problem they don’t understand.[/QUOTE]
So where do you draw the line between someone who is legitimately being harassed and someone who is just a big pussy? I have seen it where an AB thought the bosun was harassing him by telling him what work to do and checking on his work. I would put him in the big pussy category but he thought it was harassment. I have sailed from AB to Master for 30 years on a variety of ships and I have sailed with plenty of assholes. I have never had one that I couldn’t handle. If you do your job, even the worst asshole will realize it can be counter-productive to bother you.
I think this is why these days many employers are having us sit through mandatory anti-harassment videos/training.
[QUOTE=RespectMyAuthority;187267]So where do you draw the line between someone who is legitimately being harassed and someone who is just a big pussy? I have seen it where an AB thought the bosun was harassing him by telling him what work to do and checking on his work. I would put him in the big pussy category but he thought it was harassment. I have sailed from AB to Master for 30 years on a variety of ships and I have sailed with plenty of assholes. I have never had one that I couldn’t handle. If you do your job, even the worst asshole will realize it can be counter-productive to bother you.[/QUOTE]
Well that particular example is the number one reason I hear about a claim of “harassment”. Someone told someone else how to do a job the way they wanted it done and then “supervised” the job being done to their standard. I can’t count on one hand how many meetings I’ve had in the past couple years where I have to explain the chain of command to individual crew members.
I’m no fan of the repetitive training on harassment, or the fact that the more training we do the more the trouble makers feel emboldened to use terms like “harassment” or “unproductive work environment.” I just haven’t seen any actual cases of harassment on my ships. I’ve seen more than enough of people attempting to game the systems set in place to protect the crew for the wrong purposes though. None of which were female by the way. I do know that you can’t call anyone a “big pussy” anymore and that’s frankly kind of sad. Trying to turn a ship into a corporate HR type environment is not what I call progress.
[QUOTE=DamnYankee;187270] I do know that you can’t call anyone a “big pussy” anymore and that’s frankly kind of sad. Trying to turn a ship into a corporate HR type environment is not what I call progress.[/QUOTE]
Thanks for the info. I get in enough trouble with HR. I have been trying out other phrases. I have been using “Caitlyn” lately to describe someone who was born a man but acts…well…sissified.
[QUOTE=DamnYankee;187270]
I’m no fan of the repetitive training on harassment, or the fact that the more training we do the more the trouble makers feel emboldened to use terms like “harassment” or “unproductive work environment.” I just haven’t seen any actual cases of harassment on my ships. I’ve seen more than enough of people attempting to game the systems set in place to protect the crew for the wrong purposes though. None of which were female by the way. I do know that you can’t call anyone a “big pussy” anymore and that’s frankly kind of sad. Trying to turn a ship into a corporate HR type environment is not what I call progress.[/QUOTE]
I’ve had at least two cases that might have been at least borderline harassment. In both cases the crew involved told me that they could handle it themselves no problem but they were reporting it because that is what I said I wanted. I got statements and had the offenders relieved in the next port. Nobody was sad to see him go in either case.
I have experienced attempted gaming of the system, more often though it’s the crew mistaking just day to day frictions as harassment. After I’ve read the required “no harassing” script I give a little informal talk, basically I’m looking to run the ship, I require that crew get treated right and don’t want any bullshit. Seems to cut down on the false alarms.
I don’t have any where near as many crew problems as some of the other captains. Moving quick and decisively is the trick. Sure everyone can deal with a bully but why should we have to? We’ve work to do, don’t have the time or energy to put up with some loser’s bullshit.
[QUOTE=Kennebec Captain;187274]I’ve had at least two cases that might have been at least borderline harassment. In both cases the crew involved told me that they could handle it themselves no problem but they were reporting it because that is what I said I wanted. I got statements and had the offenders relieved in the next port. Nobody was sad to see him go in either case.
I have experienced attempted gaming of the system, more often though it’s the crew mistaking just day to day frictions as harassment. After I’ve read the required “no harassing” script I give a little informal talk, basically I’m looking to run the ship, I require that crew get treated right and don’t want any bullshit. Seems to cut down on the false alarms.
I don’t have any where near as many crew problems as some of the other captains. Moving quick and decisively is the trick. Sure everyone can deal with a bully but why should we have to? We’ve work to do, don’t have the time or energy to put up with some loser’s bullshit.[/QUOTE]
Some HR departments don’t let things get handled on board once the word “harassment” is used in any complaint(even verbal). It can be a pain in the butt. Once a complaint is brought, it automatically goes all the way the top and an investigation must take place. The results of this must go into the office. HR never seems satisfied with a quick and easy solution. These matters are frequently one person’s word against another with no easy answers. The office usually thinks they know best without really knowing what really happens on board. Dealing with bullshit investigations is work and there is work do to.
Dealing with a bully can give a person added confidence by standing up for one’s self. Sometimes to get the job done a little bit of bullying might be needed. In a perfect world there would be no bullying but we all have been bullied and been a bully in different situations. Yes, there is a line that shouldn’t be crossed but we are sailors and should have a little thicker skin than most. If we all have someone else fight our battles for us, we all become a bunch of freaking pansies.
[QUOTE=RespectMyAuthority;187275]Some HR departments don’t let things get handled on board once the word “harassment” is used in any complaint(even verbal). It can be a pain in the butt. Once a complaint is brought, it automatically goes all the way the top and an investigation must take place. The results of this must go into the office. HR never seems satisfied with a quick and easy solution. These matters are frequently one person’s word against another with no easy answers. The office usually thinks they know best without really knowing what really happens on board. Dealing with bullshit investigations is work and there is work do to.
Dealing with a bully can give a person added confidence by standing up for one’s self. Sometimes to get the job done a little bit of bullying might be needed. In a perfect world there would be no bullying but we all have been bullied and been a bully in different situations. Yes, there is a line that shouldn’t be crossed but we are sailors and should have a little thicker skin than most. If we all have someone else fight our battles for us, we all become a bunch of freaking pansies.[/QUOTE]
In my experience the BS harassment cases go straight to the office where after a long drawn out exchange of statements etc, sometimes lasting more then one trip it’s decided the case has no merit.
The real harassment cases or at least potential real cases come to me, I present it to the office as just a routine case of crew discipline. I just collect statements and get rid of the offender.
My model of how I want the ship run comes from my experence on the Aleutian freighters / Alaskan tugs where I worked for a number of years. The crew was not close friends by any means but there was work to be done, mutual respect, you’d get off deck quicker if everyone worked together. Words might be exchaged on deck if things were going badly but never any grudges carried over the next day. I’ve never had much patience for the plots and subplots and scheming that goes on on some deep-sea ships. Just fire the trouble-makers and focus on work.
Those guys are a problem waiting to happen. Sooner or later it’ll blow up.
[QUOTE=Kennebec Captain;187279]In my experience the BS harassment cases go straight to the office where after a long drawn out exchange of statements etc, sometimes lasting more then one trip it’s decided the case has no merit.
The real harassment cases or at least potential real cases come to me, I present it to the office as just a routine case of crew discipline. I just collect statements and get rid of the offender.
My model of how I want the ship run comes from my experence on the Aleutian freighters / Alaskan tugs where I worked for a number of years. The crew was not close friends by any means but there was work to be done, mutual respect, you’d get off deck quicker if everyone worked together. Words might be exchaged on deck if things were going badly but never any grudges carried over the next day. I’ve never had much patience for the plots and subplots and scheming that goes on on some deep-sea ships. Just fire the trouble-makers and focus on work.
Those guys are a problem waiting to happen. Sooner or later it’ll blow up.[/QUOTE]
In the deep sea world it is not always so easy to fire a “trouble maker”. If you are foreign, the company doesn’t like to pay for the transportation home. If you are state-side it is easier. I haven’t come across much scheming and sub-plots other than in the stewards department where there always seems to be drama. I have seen some ships where the captain gets a reputation as being a “hatchet man”. The company gets fed up with sending replacements out as you are requiring HR to do more work. The company usually wants things documented also. If someone is a troublemaker there is a process. A verbal warming, a written warning and after that another reason to fire them. Yes, if the offense is particularly bad the trouble-maker can be dealt with at one time. Rarely does that happen.
I seriously doubt that grudges NEVER carried over until the next day that you know of. People are people. Maybe they rarely carried over.
I will give you an example of how standing up for yourself against a bully can be better than doing the whole HR thing. I was Chief Mate on a RO/RO ship loading in Kuwait. I had orders on how high containers could be stacked on deck. We were chartered to an outside company. The charterer’s representative, without having met me, came up to me and said in an intimidating tone “What is this BULLSHIT I hear that you will only allow containers X high on deck?” I said “Who are you and yes that is true”. He said “Well I load them y high all the time and that’s what we are doing here!” My usual reply would be “F-off”. Normally I am usually quite confrontational but I wasn’t this time. I politely said “Well, that’s not going to happen.” So the charterer’s rep went to see the Captain. I got called up to the Captain’s office. He was intimidated by the charterer’s rep and had to call the home office and talk to the cargo people there on speakerphone. The office said “Well what does the Chief Mate say?.. yeah go with that.” Obviously, he was trying to bully me and others into doing things the way he wanted. It was apparent that this tactic had worked before for him. He ran into a brick wall this time. If I had talked to the Captain and filed a complaint with HR, where would that have led? Most likely I would have been unemployed shortly after for not having a backbone. The charterer’s rep also learned that some people don’t respond in the way he wanted when bullied. I also learned something from it. I learned that particular Captain had no real spine and couldn’t be counted on to have my back. Some times standing up and confronting a bully for yourself solves the problem much quicker than calling HR.
Once again we are sailors not Nancy boys.
I don’t think we are talking about the same thing. The question is how to deal with harassment on board the ship. I say get rid of the offending crew member asap. I am aware of verbal, LOW, DFC routine. Yes, better if you’re US coastwise.
You’re saying engaging the company with a formal complaint is a mistake. I agree. I don’t advocate doing that. It’s a morass. It’s best if you can get the crew to report problems to the captain (direct or via bos’n dept head etc) Otherwise the problem will either fester and manifest it self later or someone will send an email to the company. Both these outcomes are to be avoided.
I’d rather have control over the outlet the crew uses for beefs and complaints rather than letting them find or create their own.
[QUOTE=Honest_Abe;187110]Harassment should be handled by taking the following steps:
Antagonizers were handled much differently where I grew up, but this is how things are done in current-day corporate America. More than anything, taking the HR route covers [I]your[/I] ass. Even if the person deserves a solid thumping, doing so will leave you [B]both[/B] out of work and money. It should also be noted that the maritime sector isn’t the best career choice if you can’t handle crass humor and a good-natured ribbing.[/QUOTE]
That’s the way to go. When it happened to me, I took that route. Retaliation only gets one in trouble. In my case, it wasn’t good-natured ribbing. It was a death threat.