[QUOTE=Kennebec Captain;187274]Sure everyone can deal with a bully but why should we have to? We’ve work to do, don’t have the time or energy to put up with some loser’s bullshit.[/QUOTE]
To me that’s what this issue is really about when distilled to its essence. It doesn’t mean it’s acceptable to be whiny and report every little grievance–part of being an adult is learning to deal with difficult coworkers. I think something many don’t realize is these reporting channels aren’t there to coddle fragile employees, they exist solely to mitigate a company’s exposure to legal risk; that includes people who make false claims and/or abuse the system. I just don’t see how allowing a toxic employee to stick around does anything but hinder productivity/make life more difficult for all parties involved.
1.) Document the issues
2.) Talk to my department head (Chief Mate) and document the meeting and outcome. After this, see what comes of the problem.
3.) If no changes to the problem, continue to document and see the Master. See what comes of the problem.
4.) If this doesn’t fix it (which would be surprising) contact the DPA and turn over all this documentation.
I’ve seen where the DPA gets involved and gets pissed about being contacted, but screw them… that’s their job. Especially if the senior management aboard the vessel is too damn lazy or ineffective at doing their own jobs as required.
[QUOTE=Kennebec Captain;187287]I don’t think we are talking about the same thing. The question is how to deal with harassment on board the ship. I say get rid of the offending crew member asap. I am aware of verbal, LOW, DFC routine. Yes, better if you’re US coastwise.
You’re saying engaging the company with a formal complaint is a mistake. I agree. I don’t advocate doing that. It’s a morass. It’s best if you can get the crew to report problems to the captain (direct or via bos’n dept head etc) Otherwise the problem will either fester and manifest it self later or someone will send an email to the company. Both these outcomes are to be avoided.
I’d rather have control over the outlet the crew uses for beefs and complaints rather than letting them find or create their own.[/QUOTE]
Some calling it bullying, some call it harassment. To me bullying is milder and harassment is more extreme. Sexual harassment is a whole different thing. To me bullying is part of life and harassment is not to be tolerated. Where one draws the line between the two is up for debate. What do you think constitutes bullying and what constitutes harassment?
I agree most problems are best not allowed to fester. I would rather confront the problem head on than tap dance around it and let it get worse.
Basically my company’s ISM policy doesn’t allow us to keep it on the ship. If harassment gets reported to the department head or captain then it has to go to the office. If Billy Bob comes and tells me that he has a “problem” with Jimmy John then it can be handled internally. If Billy Bob tells me that Jimmy John is “harassing” him then it has to go off the ship. Harassment is the magic word. It is the politically correct over-sensitive pussification that has caused this namby pamby bullshit.
If you go to work for a boat company in the GOM that deals with the majors, there is zip, nada crap like that going on. The big drillers like Shell won’t put up with it and they won’t hire a company that will either.
[QUOTE=RespectMyAuthority;187309]Some calling it bullying, some call it harassment. To me bullying is milder and harassment is more extreme. Sexual harassment is a whole different thing. To me bullying is part of life and harassment is not to be tolerated. Where one draws the line between the two is up for debate. What do you think constitutes bullying and what constitutes harassment?
I agree most problems are best not allowed to fester. I would rather confront the problem head on than tap dance around it and let it get worse.
Basically my company’s ISM policy doesn’t allow us to keep it on the ship. If harassment gets reported to the department head or captain then it has to go to the office. If Billy Bob comes and tells me that he has a “problem” with Jimmy John then it can be handled internally. If Billy Bob tells me that Jimmy John is “harassing” him then it has to go off the ship. Harassment is the magic word. It is the politically correct over-sensitive pussification that has caused this namby pamby bullshit.[/QUOTE]
Perhaps you are confusing bullying with simple shop banter and ribbing? Bullying and harassment go hand in hand and can be so severe as to drive employees to suicide.
There is a lot of information coming out about bullying and the devastating effects it can have in the workplace. Bullying can cost companies millions per year in lost productivity, turnover, and legal costs.
There is no place in any organization for bullying and harassment, sexual or otherwise. This is a tough enough environment without having to deal with pathological dickheads who make a career out of making other people’s lives a living hell, especially when there is no geographic escape route. These people should be identified and put on notice that continued bad behavior will result in discipline and possible termination.
If you still don’t believe it, think of that one person (could be anyone, but is often a department head) who has run off numerous good mariners. You all know one. The cost of recruiting, training, and ultimately replacing those persons costs a fortune, and the resulting bad reputation your company or agency gets as a result can devastate for years. My agency suffers and will continue to suffer because bullies are protected here. Bullying is condoned here, in spite of the pep talk emails from the admiral. That’s one reason why we still struggle to staff ships even in this shipping downturn. There is only so much abuse someone will take before they walk.
Incidentally, bullied employees aren’t necessarily the worst one…they are usually the quiet high achievers, whose presence threatens the bully.
[QUOTE=catherder;187312]Perhaps you are confusing bullying with simple shop banter and ribbing? Bullying and harassment can go hand in hand and can be so severe as to drive employees to suicide.
[/QUOTE]
Both bullying and harassment use some intimidation to get a person to what the intimidator wants them to do. I don’t think simple banter and ribbing is bullying. Once again some people with a thin skin could see banter and ribbing as bullying if taken too far. One’s ribbing could be another’s bullying. I am sure my confrontational nature has been interpreted by some weaker people as “bullying”. I don’t see it that way. I hope even the weak don’t see me as harassing them. But people need stop being so frigging sensitive where if you are in the least bit critical, it is seen as bullying or harassing. More people than not need to have a thicker skin.
[QUOTE=RespectMyAuthority;187313]Once again some people with a thin skin could see banter and ribbing as bullying if taken too far. One’s ribbing could be another’s bullying. I am sure my confrontational nature has been interpreted by some weaker people as “bullying”. I don’t see it that way. I hope even the weak don’t see me as harassing them. But people need stop being so frigging sensitive where if you are in the least bit critical, it is seen as bullying or harassing. More people than not need to have a thicker skin.[/QUOTE]
This did cross my mind during my previous post. I sailed with a guy who as a cadet and still as an experienced officer could not take a joke or any kind of ribbing to save his mother’s life. Eventually he complained enough about little ribbing and jokes that no one even took him seriously anymore or wanted anything to do with him. This even after an old Chief told him, “kid, if people really didn’t like you, they wouldn’t f**k with you at all.”
When people stopped talking to him altogether because of his sensitivity issues, he began to complain about that as well.
Basically my company’s ISM policy doesn’t allow us to keep it on the ship. If harassment gets reported to the department head or captain then it has to go to the office. If Billy Bob comes and tells me that he has a “problem” with Jimmy John then it can be handled internally. If Billy Bob tells me that Jimmy John is “harassing” him then it has to go off the ship. Harassment is the magic word. It is the politically correct over-sensitive pussification that has caused this namby pamby bullshit.[/QUOTE]
In that case it sounds like the company policy is in urgent need of a rewrite. The policy manual should define harrasement explicitly, not leave it up to crew members as they see fit. The company policy is giving individual crew members the power to force senior officers to commit heavy time and resources on what could be minor crew problems. It’s the tail wagging the dog.
[QUOTE=RespectMyAuthority;187313]Both bullying and harassment use some intimidation to get a person to what the intimidator wants them to do. I don’t think simple banter and ribbing is bullying. Once again some people with a thin skin could see banter and ribbing as bullying if taken too far. One’s ribbing could be another’s bullying. I am sure my confrontational nature has been interpreted by some weaker people as “bullying”. I don’t see it that way. I hope even the weak don’t see me as harassing them. But people need stop being so frigging sensitive where if you are in the least bit critical, it is seen as bullying or harassing. More people than not need to have a thicker skin.[/QUOTE]
I’ve been in this business in one way, shape, form etc since 1978 when I was one of the first women to sail on Navy ships and I’d find my car in the parking lot, windows smashed and tires and upholstery cut, by men who did not want us there so I’ve managed to survive a lot of very hostile shit. You should realize that I am not addressing your “confrontational nature.”
[QUOTE=Kennebec Captain;187319]In that case it sounds like the company policy is in urgent need of a rewrite. The policy manual should define harrasement explicitly, not leave it up to crew members as they see fit. The company policy is giving individual crew members the power to force senior officers to commit heavy time and resources on what could be minor crew problems. It’s the tail wagging the dog.[/QUOTE]
Yes, the company policy is in need of a rewrite.Other the other hand, rarely does a someone claim harassment. I do think that most companies definition of harassment is very nebulous. Often times if the person if uncomfortable with a situation, they have to speak up about it. If they speak up and the situation continues, it is now harassment.
I found this in the “legal dictionary” online…harassment- “the act of systematic and/or continued unwanted and annoying actions of one party or a group, including threats and demands.” To me even that is pretty nebulous. Who is to saying what actions are unwanted and annoying? With sexual harassment that is pretty easy but with regular old workplace harassment, it isn’t as easy to define to me. A really sensitive person could think that something is harassment where a thicker skinned person wouldn’t. I am guessing that we should go on what a normal person would interpret as harassment. Then again sailors are not normal in any way shape or form…
I think with the word "continued" in the definition it means that the person thinking themselves being the subject of harassment should speak up and then if it persists it becomes a problem. Unless it's something that's obviously inappropriate like sexual harassment, but even that might not always be obvious.
[QUOTE=catherder;187326]I’ve been in this business in one way, shape, form etc since 1978 when I was one of the first women to sail on Navy ships and I’d find my car in the parking lot, windows smashed and tires and upholstery cut, by men who did not want us there so I’ve managed to survive a lot of very hostile shit. You should realize that I am not addressing your “confrontational nature.”[/QUOTE]
Yes this situation is obviously harassment. I am talking about things that aren’t as clear cut. And yes I realize that you are not addressing my nature. A friend of my that I sailed with once called me the “king of confrontation”. Whether that is an insult or compliment is debatable.
My first trip out as 3rd mate too many years ago, I had this 2nd mate on me every morning for about 3 weeks to do a LORAN skywave and plot a sun line to get a fix in the middle of the Pacific. It was in no way shape or form friendly banter or ribbing. It was fucking annoying from a useless piece of shit. At one point I even told him that I don’t want to hear any more about skywaves. He didn’t stop. By today’s standards, some might call it harassment. Back in those days, you just dealt with it. I dealt with it by actually doing a skywave one morning and waiting for him to bring it up. Well when he did, I said “I did your skywave and the sun line. They run parallel to each other. So it is useless. So shut the fuck up about it.” He stormed off. I asked the AB on watch “Did I sound mean?” He said “very mean”. I said “good”. That 2nd mate never bothered me again. This is much more of a borderline example than your case.
If I had to guess this was from at least 15 or better years ago and happened on a Ferry that ran Long Island Sound. As the story was told to me a Captain was tired of a Deckhand screwing up and told him that if he Screwed Up again his was going to F Him Up the Ass. The Deckhand filed a Multi Million Dollar Sexual Harassment Suit against the Company and the Captain.
Now, I worked with this Skipper many years before this happened and I could hear him saying it but I am also sure that it took a bunch of screw ups for him to get to this point. Should he have had a better choice of words, No Doubt. Did he deserve to get sued for that much money, IMHO, NO!
I will be the first one to say that Harassment of any kind does not belong onboard a vessel. After sitting through several Harassment “Classes”, I have to wonder how there are not more cases filed. From some of the examples, anyone can find something to be “Harassed” by at any time on any day! To me there are way to many B.S. Cases Files that they take away from the actual Harassment that deserves to be filed.
Good morning lady’s and gentalmen,just wanted to ask a question or two about offshore lawsuits and settlements.Is it hard to get back into the industry if anyone does this to a offshore company.Just needed to know in general…Thanks
[QUOTE=Tugs;187358]If I had to guess this was from at least 15 or better years ago and happened on a Ferry that ran Long Island Sound. As the story was told to me a Captain was tired of a Deckhand screwing up and told him that if he Screwed Up again his was going to F Him Up the Ass. The Deckhand filed a Multi Million Dollar Sexual Harassment Suit against the Company and the Captain.
Now, I worked with this Skipper many years before this happened and I could hear him saying it but I am also sure that it took a bunch of screw ups for him to get to this point. Should he have had a better choice of words, No Doubt. Did he deserve to get sued for that much money, IMHO, NO!
I will be the first one to say that Harassment of any kind does not belong onboard a vessel. After sitting through several Harassment “Classes”, I have to wonder how there are not more cases filed. From some of the examples, anyone can find something to be “Harassed” by at any time on any day! To me there are way to many B.S. Cases Files that they take away from the actual Harassment that deserves to be filed.[/QUOTE]
That’s not harassment, damn it. We talk like that between ourselves every day. Must have been a real shitty “deckhand”. Sexual harassment, what a joke
Symington says she could handle the comments, but then her car was vandalized.
She believes a male co-worker from her station smashed the windows in her car three times within a year*while it was parked outside the station. *
Why do they go after the vehicle? Its not “sexual” harassment. It’s more like aggressive territorial defense. “I don’t want to work with wimins. I don’t even like wimins. I all the time eat, sleep, and breath mans.”
Why go back to the industry? With the gotten millions stay onshore and create your own perfect company.
Without the necessary millions… you straightforwardly crashed, with the utmost probability even onshore!
[QUOTE=Respect2013;187359]Good morning lady’s and gentalmen,just wanted to ask a question or two about offshore lawsuits and settlements.Is it hard to get back into the industry if anyone does this to a offshore company.Just needed to know in general…Thanks[/QUOTE]
Why go back into the industry? With the gotten millions, stay onshore and create your own perfect company.
Without the necessary millions… you straightforwardly crashed, with the utmost probability even onshore!
[QUOTE=Respect2013;187359]Good morning lady’s and gentalmen,just wanted to ask a question or two about offshore lawsuits and settlements.Is it hard to get back into the industry if anyone does this to a offshore company.Just needed to know in general…Thanks[/QUOTE]
While there are not supposed to so called “Blacklists”, we sailors have this little thing called the “Marine Index Bureau”
