The Russians didnot waste much time! I predicted this already in an earlier post.
Trump left a vacuum in Syria by withdrawing the troops. Vacuums have the naturel habit to fill. In this case it is Putin who steps up to the plate, fighting a NATO member and gaining in the process more influence in the Middle East and that free of charge.
If for some reason US and Turkish forces (both NATO members) should end up in a shooting incident by accident, what happens to the alliance??
Likewise, if Russian forces or aircrafts should hit Turkish forces, or “accidentally” cross into Turkish territory and Turkey invoke Article 5, what would US and the other NATO members do??
The same may apply if the Syrian National Army/Air force, or the Kurdish YPG should cross the border.
This is not a hypothetical question, but something that MAY happen and will require some mature leadership, clear heads and diplomacy, something that is in short supply in the present US administration.
Who will lead on the NATO side? Jens Stoltenberg may know what to do, but does he carry any weight against some gungho Generals that see a possibility to make a name for themselves?
I don’t have the answers. Anybody else do??
Little beyond my paygrade. To quote a captain I once worked with, “If I was smart I wouldn’t be a sailor.”
Just an opinion, but if anyone else was saying pull out the troops besides Trump, it would probably be viewed as “about time”. Trump isnt everyone’s hero, but Im beginning to think he’d be criticized for curing cancer because he put doctors out of work. The liberal left is arguing to keep troops deployed. Doesnt anyone else find that messed up?
Great question…similar to the question I asked in the other thread about what will the US do if China finally pushes too far. BTW, this happened recently before and nothing really came of it which really surprised me:
But yeah, definitely has the chance for escalation.
I think it’s a great idea for someone in Europe to take the lead on this since it’s in their backyard…I read constantly on here about how bad the US is at this or that…so by all means, show us how it’s done. I nominate someone from France to take the lead based on their proven military track record.
No, they’d be saying, “hey if you remove this signal presence of US troops the Kurds will be slaughtered by Syria or Turkey, maybe both”. What would be different in the hypothetical you offer is, we know exactly what what would happen and people are dead, allies the US got to fight are dead and the US is no longer a trustworthy ally due to people like Hawsepiper who think they should get to keep their American life standard salaries without first world taxes and let someone else pay for roads.
What? You read literature against American Exceptionalism? And are now championing it? You can’t even draw a line between US foreign policy re Iran v North Korea but want to cede worldwide stability which of course influences food and energy supplies to the US and of course peoples lives, but yeah, let’s listen to someone who doesn’t know how roads get made or plowed.
So theyd be saying the same thingbthey said in1991 when we let the kurds be slaughtered. Fair enough. Except when does it end, or are you saying it doesnt end? I only spent a year of my life in one of those shitholes but i have many friends who have spent 5 or 6. How much is enough? Why are a bunch of Kurds my problem? Where was the moral high ground in Rwanda?
This question and the whole post are just ridiculous. I cannot imagine that you do not know better…
The NATO is a mutual defense organization against outside aggressors.
A member, invading an outside country and coming under attack from the invaded country or this country’s allies, can just stop the invasion, retreat and all is over.
Turkey will certainly not invoke the ‘mutual defense’ expecting any help; may be they have another secret agenda.
The Norwegian Secretary General Stoltenberg or some of your warmonger generals have nothing to say.
Only the North Atlantic Council can decide. It is composed of all 29 member-states; decisions are always by unanimity.
so let’s leave this “signal presence” there so our troops can be slaughtered right beside them…how Democratic (party) of you…years later during congressional testimony, you can say ‘at this point, what difference does it make?’
make no mistake, the Kurds were already fighting, have been fighting, and would have continued to fight with or without US intervention…they’ve been doing it for decades already
the message that is sent is that it’s time for you deadbeat mf’ers to pack your own water, pay for and die for your own wars.
as I said before:
RTFF my friend…
As I wrote, “I read ON HERE about how bad the US is”…as in, on this forum…come on man, your frothing at the mouth is affecting your comprehension skills…
here’s a news flash brother…the world isn’t stable…the fact that these folks are chomping at the bit to kill each other is evidence of that…the US being there is just artificially putting the inevitable on hold. X years, Y lives, and 23 Trillion dollars later, we just can’t afford to do it anymore. Enough is enough…
here in the first world, we don’t plow our roads…and yes, the US knows very well how to make roads because we’ve been doing it at our own expense all over the world for 70 years (70 years of progress as some on here have called it). Well, after 70 years what’s progressed most is our national debt…so once again, enough is enough…it’s time for the EU to stop their complaining about how we do it and show us how it’s done.
Exactly, Exactly, and Exactly on all 3 points
But that’s the point. None of our troops were in peril, and none of theirs, until someone said, ‘those lives aren’t worth anything, even a US soldier just standing there with the US flag over him.’
But that was all that was necessary to keep them alive.
Keep telling yourself it’s somehow about ‘your’ money and that wasn’t worth it. Disgusting.
Easy to say that from your lazy boy here at home…the Washington Post’s reporting seems to dispute your rosy assessment:
From that article:
Although “the Turks gave guarantees to us” that U.S. forces would not be harmed, the official said, Syrian militias allied with them “are running up and down roads, ambushing and attacking vehicles,” putting American forces — as well as civilians — in danger even as they withdraw. The militias, known as the Free Syrian Army, “are crazy and not reliable.” At the same time, the official said, the Islamic State is active in the area, and there are reports that Russian and Syrian forces are moving in as well. “We obviously could not continue,” said the official, who called the situation “a total s—storm.”
Is this where you say ‘well, those guys are all volunteers…they knew what they were getting into’?
When talking about amounts of money that begin with ‘T’, it’s OUR money…and yeah, I have a vested interest to see that money not (continue to be) wasted
I would say your statement was, at least historically, somewhat inaccurate-
11000 Kurds died fighting IS/ISIS with US advisers, US supplied weapons, US air support and intelligence gathered from US satellites and surveillance planes.
They did the heavy lifting and dying, not US soldiers. They also kept thousands of IS fighters in custody, incl. many foreign fighters, until Trump in his infinite wisdom decided to pull back the US forces and allow Turkey free rein to slaughter the Kurds, both the fighters and the civilians in their homes.
All hail to the brave Kurds who have been denied a homeland of their own for centuries by successive foreign powers.
BTW; Trump declared HE won the fight against IS/ISIS before the bombing in Manbij referred to in the article above.
I didn’t say that Turkey would invoke Article 5 because they attacked Syria, but MAY do if Russian, Syrian or Kurdish forces cross into Turkey.
PS> Kurdish SDF is not a national force of course, but neither is/was Al Qaeda when US invoked Article 5 after the 9/11 attack.
It looks unlikely at the moment that Russia will do so though. I just watched Ergovan speak at the Turkish Parliament on Al Jazeera. He sounds more like he may pull out of NATO due to lack of support for his incursion into Syria and join forces with Russia.
He is heading to Moscow for talks with Putin and are not very interested in hearing what Mike Pence and Pompeo has to say.
That is right, Jens Stoltenberg has no power to decide what NATO’s Council should do, but he has the power to make suggestions and to an extent set the agenda for their meetings.
USA, as the Big Brother in NATO has a lot of weight and a US General is always in command of NATO forces.
PS> He is NATO Secretary General. He happens to be Norwegian though.
It’s their country, they should do the heavy lifting. I’m not trying to minimize their deaths, but again. Why is it a problem the US needs to try to fix? Youll just be on here telling us how wrong we got it anyway.
I’m just stating facts and linking to sources. You may interpret it however you want, or see criticism where there is none.
I do disagree with what is being done to the Kurds. That anybody can defend that is beyond me, but obviously there are some that do.
I also disagree with the way Trump is handling foreign policy, but I’m hardly alone on that aspect.
OP, since you are pro-war why not encourage your congressional representatives to vote on a declaration of war?
I remember the screeching the left made about the war powers act when they thought Trump was going to start a war against Iran without their permission. Now that it seems that Trump wants to bring troops home and not engage in endless war those same leftists are screeching about why Trump is bringing troops home and not starting wars…
I think it was the UK’s blair that started it all and fabricated intelligence information to con the US to go with them…Middle East has not recovered from that yet.
If you look at the deaths that caused why isnt blair in prison for war crimes?