Differences of Opinion

Scuttlebutt
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I didn’t come here because I perceive that my nose belongs in certain matters. I came here for the stimulating discussion of all matters maritime, provided by highly skilled and surprisingly enlightened professionals from a wide variety of backgrounds. One of the things I appreciate the most about gCaptain is that objectionable opinions are allowed, even if they amount only to baseless vitriol.

This is something precious that should not be taken for granted. Arenas of intelligent discourse between people with different points of view are becoming increasingly rare. I ascribe it mostly to the echo chamber effect; Perversely, the ease with which we can communicate through modern means has led us to seek out ever tighter conversational niches, to the point where we hear only what we want to hear. After all, silencing an annoying voice is only the click of a button away, and not having to deal with contrary views is just so… comfortable.

I truly fear what this is doing to the youth of today. If the body doesn’t encounter resistance, it wanes away to nothingness. I believe that this also applies to the mind. What will become of an entire generation whose critical thinking is never challenged, who doesn’t need to found their views and opinions on logical argument? What will they achieve? What will they invent? What sort of world are they going to build for our grandchildren?

I would like to extend my heartfelt thanks to John and our team of improbably patient moderators for creating this forum and making it what it is. Please don’t let it get enveloped in the wave of gentrification currently sweeping the internet, and degenerate into yet another echo camber.

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Pet peeves are indeed annoying, especially when addressed in spurious contexts. This thread may even be a manifestation of one of mine. However, the subject is much bigger than someone’s contribution and whether or not it’s appreciated. I mostly want to express my gratitude that this place exists in its rough-n-tumble form, without every fight getting broken up as soon as someone’s feelings get hurt. It reminds me of how the internet used to be back in the 90’s.

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I deleted my post, my beef was off-topic posts that end up derailing a thread.

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and some persons (who shall not be named) need to learn to stay the FUCK out of threads where they have ZERO vested interest (especially where their IMHO’s are contrary to those who do have an interest).

if they can only learn to sit on a sideline and not inject their personal anti US sentiments (considering they are not US citizens), this forum would be a far more pleasant place with less vitriolic content. If only they could remain silent and desist but they can’t because their desire is to sow disharmony and discord here. They love to play the role of the agent provocateur and thrown bombs in at any opportunity.

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The best way to get rid of a troll is to stop feeding them, ignore that keyboard commando, never respond to him at all, if everybody does this he will go away.

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I really enjoy the interesting foreign participation on the forum. I hope for much more of it.

Even though he does post far too much left wing anti-American nonsense, overall, Ombuggie is a very good contributor on the forum.

And so is c.captain.

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I hope this isn’t going to be about me, but about how the internet and social media in general becomes a place where people go to read the opinions of like minded people only. Anybody who write anything different are either ignorant, trolls or anti-TYP and should be ignored, banned, or insulted.

IMHO it is important to be open to other ideas than those you have been feed for years, either by media, schools or the people around you.
It could be that someone with a different background and experience know something that you can learn from.
Likewise, to accept new ideas and new technology, but not uncritically.

When you travel to new places, with different culture and religion etc. it is important to be willing to see and try to understand their ways of doing things, not just dismiss it as wrong, or even stupid.

When I left Norway for the first time, pretty accurately 60 years ago now,(actually in May 1959) at the tender age of 15, I had been fed the mantra that Norwegians were “the best seamen in the world” and that people in other parts of the world that looked and behaved different from us Scandinavians/Europeans were somehow inferior.

For the first couple of years I sailed mainly together with other Norwegians that had much the same attitude, but then I came on a ship were half the deck crew were from Galicia in Northern Spain.
I spent a lot of time with them and learnt to speak a bit of Spanish (with Galician accent). The C/Mate used that fact to make everything into a completion between the the “Norwegian gang” and the “Spanish gang”. I became part of the Spanish gang.
My attitude started to change, at least towards Southern Europeans
I realised that they were as good, if not better seamen than the Norwegians and had a different attitude to both alcohol and people from other parts of the world.

From 1974 onward I have worked in the Offshore Marine Industry all over the world, with people of all different races, religions and nationalities, until my retirement in 2016.

I hope that people can understand that I have nothing against America, Americans, the USMM, or anything else American.
I strongly disagree with some US policies, past and present, but that is not to be anti-American.

But back to topic.
IMHO it is important to voice your opinion and to argue your case as forcefully as you can, backed up by facts and other similar opinions, if you can find them.
But be able accept other peoples opinion and admit that you can be wrong, not trying to shut out any opinion you don’t like, or agree with. (Or with throwing out insult and swear words)

PS> I thought c.captain was enjoying some hard banter, but apparently misread that. I’ll try to be more gentle in the future.

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ah but you are repeatedly injecting your opinions regarding topics which you are not a party to and further you are now and generally have always had an anti USA slant. If you try to deny that I will also get to call you disingenuous. In the thread which lead to this one, you said that:

what on earth gives you standing to opine what is or is not “THE AMERICAN WAY”? You have never lived in the USA and since your knowledge of all that constitutes what is or is not “American” is what you get from outside the US, then you are offering opinion which is based on what is very likely a slanted viewpoint. And don’t talk to me about all the Americans you worked with years ago…you have disparaged them to no end here and always speak to how superior Europeans and Asians are at matters maritime. And if you try to deny that one I will get to call you a liar!

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I have no need for you to be “gentle” with me. Further, I have no desire or intention to be anything other that fully engaged where you are concerned. My weapons are my words and I will use them accordingly to blast you out of the water when called for. So send me your best Euro salvo and I will return fire in kind with my all American ordinance.

NO QUARTER…SIR!

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btw, that is the USS MISSOURI. NOT built in Norway by Norwegians!

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My grandpa literally built that…shipwright at the Brooklyn Navy Yard 1938-1968. There is a ring at home with his initials engraved on it from the barbette armor on one of the 5" twin mounts.

(An immigrant that was proud to be an American)

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With regards to “Free Trade” the Wikipedia article on Foreign trade of the United States is an interesting read. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Foreign_trade_of_the_United_States

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And you are not shy about voicing your opinion on subject you have no involvement with, countries you have no knowledge of and foreign people you have not met, or interacted with.

Same goes; you have never lived outside the US, but that doesn’t hold you back from voicing opinions on foreign affairs, foreign lands and foreign peoples. Not sure if you even watch or read foreign news sources to get some different points of view from what the standard US sources present. (Oh horror, you may get contaminated with foreign ideas!!!)

I’m referring to the fact that the US has been the champion of freedom of navigation, shipping and trade in the world and still is very much demanding those freedoms still, at least for US interests, incl. freedom for US companies to supply financial services in other countries.
Are you disputing that that is THE AMERICAN WAY?

I have worked with Americans and other nationalities since I first went to sea 60 years ago, until my retirement. (Even now, via this and other maritime forums)
OK so have you, I know. (Worked with Americans I mean)

OK deal, but without the personal insults and swearing, I hope.

Here is in return for your fire from the battle ship Missouri:

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image756×472 87.8 KB

Now, what is your opinion on the topic of this thread??

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I am a ship builder and not a sea going mariner or sailor and I am mainly interested in safety at sea, which should be a common matter for both of us. However, often my input at this forum is removed being considered off topic. Many master mariners don’t realize that they may sail on not seaworthy ships due to design faults and defects of all sorts and safety at sea should not be considered off topic when any matter is discussed.

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There’s an important difference between offensive opinions and off-topic bullshit. It doesn’t matter if you’re able to draw a logical chain from the topic at hand to what you want to say, it’s still off topic if it doesn’t relate. Bugge’s anti-protectionist arguments are in a gray area, your incessant mentions of your good friend Francesco Schettino are not.

Here’s a decent rule of thumb: If you have to try to fit what you want to say to the discussion, you’re off topic. If you’re in doubt, reply by starting a new thread. That way, we don’t have to see every incident in light of “the criminalization of seafarers”, and you don’t have to suffer the indignity of having your posts deleted on a regular basis.

JDCJDR. And here I go, derailing my own thread :stuck_out_tongue:

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Sorry, I don’t understand what you say. I think any topic here should be viewed from a safety at sea aspect. It cannot ever be off topic. Why are you of a different opinion?

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An example: If the topic is “great galley recipes and favorite foods while underway”, and you start going off on a tangent about galley fire precautions…that’s off topic.

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He wasn’t calling your reply off topic, he was replying to an earlier comment about comments that derail threads.

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hear! hear! Here’s to no censorship on gcaptain. I had high hopes for the internet as a place where finally we- the ‘little people’ would have a means to freely communicate without the gatekeepers involvement. I think it’s very important in any kind of free society for people to be able to speak freely, to argue and debate without someone stepping in to shut the whole conversation down. I see that happening more and more online (twitter, Facebook, etc) and in real life. Where someone doesn’t like certain words or attitudes expressed and a person or group is just totally shut down.
Seems to me, if you have a good idea you should be able to convince others without resorting to just shutting them up or hurling insults. I also think it’s important for people to be able to withstand a few insults without running off crying to some authority to protect their ‘feelings’. Remember what we were taught as kids ‘sticks and stones might break my bones but words can never hurt me’. No, they can’t not unless you allow them to. I’m sick to death of all the PC BS going around our country. What the hell happened to ‘free speech’???

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gCaptain is a US based site with a mainly US readership and following. It should be no surprise that it offers a mainly US focused content and contributions from readers.

If I were to be controversial for the fun of it… I would remind our US readers they are the new kids on the block. You may have more flat tops than everyone else, but the Europeans were navigating the oceans before Columbus even thought of sailing into the sunset.

Ducks and runs for cover.

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