To be crewed by white trash, or to be politically correct, caucasian debris.
where does it say that these vessels to fly the US flag need be US built? they are not for Jones Act trade.
you SIR are the ultimate irritant
OK that was their proposal in the LAST Congress period. If they have remove the “US built” in their proposal it MAY be a bit more realistic, but it still goes against the grains of US freedom of trade mantra of 70 years.
BTW; Freedom of the oceans are also laid down in UNCLOS, to which US is a signatory, but have not ratified.
You hate competition in all forms do you?
what I loathe are smug, self serving and anti American so called “gentlemen” such as yourself!
Here two men in the US Congress want to bring about some legislation to build a market for US flagged (and possibly) built ships. PARDON ME ALL TO HELL that might require the government to be the force to create this! It OUR natural gas and crude oil so why should not a portion of these exports be reserved for OUR flag? You just hate the USA and anything American and I for one an sick to death of you on here bleating your never ending mantra that the USA is a rural backwater and so vastly inferior to everything European and Asian. If it was up to me, you would have been silenced and expunged from here long ago!
now good day to you…SIR!
I wouldn’t classify America’s litany of “free trade agreements” as free trade. The same people on here advocating for smaller government and complaining about welfare recipients, gladly welcome and support bigger government and corporate welfare when it comes to their own career sector(s).
Well now, don’t get your knickers in a twist. I only pointed out that China and other buyers of US oil, gas or whatever other products MAY want to decide on how and by whom it will be transported as long as they pay for it. (Unless the US sellers wants to deliver to their doorstep free of charge, in which case they can do so by whatever means they want)
The days when an all powerful nation could set the rules and the rest of the world had to bow their heads and take it is history. Just ask the Brits.
A reasonably fair trading system has been established in the world, much thanks to the US leadership and superior power since WWII.
It is far from perfect, since it still favour the rich Western countries over weaker countries in Asia, Africa and South America, but that is about to change as those countries develop and challenge status quo.
Shipping is one place where there have been some resemblance of freedom, where 3rd party shipments between ports in different countries have been the norm, while cabotage have protected domestic trade in most countries.
To go back to where governments demand shipment of their goods, whether import or export, on ships flying their own flag, would go directly against everything USA have been standing for the last nearly 75 years.THAT would be anti-American.
If the US want to compete in the world’s shipping market they have to do so by building or buying ships at market rates and operate them at competitive costs, not by bullying and threats.
Neither China or anybody else in the world owe US mariners a living, you have to earn it like everybody else.
And don’t tell me that “it will only add a few cents to the price at the pump”. That is not the point. The point is freedom of shipping and trade. IMHO THAT IS THE AMERICAN WAY.
and imho, to call you a “miserable cocksucker” has to be one of the great understatements in the history of mankind.
I am going to say it…of all the others like you who have come and gone from this forum in my more than 10years participating…you SIR have done the greatest to drag it into the stinking cesspool it has become. Once there was banter and humor here but that is all now dead and gone now and I blame YOU for that…
YES I MEAN YOU!..YOU MISERABLE COCKSUCKER!
I’d say the U.S. has a pretty good track record building LNG ships. Ships that are made to last. The ETC ships ran for thirty years. One former El-Paso ship is still running forty years later.
Good record for building ships of all sorts and making them last by manning them with very competent people who sail because they love doing it, not to escape from some 3rd world village.
Not a VLGC at 75000 Cbm. in 6 x Membrane tanks, System: Technigaz
Yes US built and flagged to 1997. Changed to Bahamas flag and then to Norwegian (NIS) in 2006. Still US owned but operated by Hoegh LNG Management, Oslo.
Still in operation.
Yet another call from our resident globalist that we in the first world should gladly either give up our jobs to the third world or compete with the wages acceptable in the third world… inevitably followed by the incredulous look of feigned disbelief when there is abject rejection of that idea by the forum participants here…
I don’t expect the Chinese to advocate for the American worker as that’s not their job… It’s the job of our elected officials and it’s refreshing to see some actually doing so.
Not just my career sector… ALL career sectors.
And not corporate welfare… Corporate investment. Example, for every H1-B Visa issued, the company is required to hire a US citizen in that same capacity (at the same rate of pay) as an apprentice. Let the foreign “expert” train the expensive American to replace HIM instead of the other way around.
The US should reserve one third of all exports and imports for US flag ships (which under existing law may be foreign built). Another third of US imports and exports should be reserved for our trading partners, and the final third of US import and export shipping should be open to anyone.
Most people do not realize it, but the US needs a viable shipping industry with US flag ships, together with the necessary manufacturing and support services in order to be economically secure and successful over the long term. Shipping is a key component of a successful economy. The present approach of allowing US flag deep draft shipping to become extinct is not economically sustainable for the US.
Lest we also forget that a lot of countries like China deeply subsidize and/or flat out own national shipping companies. It’s not exactly easy to compete with a company who can literally print money at will. Just look at the recent China Shipping and COSCO merger. Closer akin to merging two government agencies than a business merger.
MARAD should be jumping into the global market place and buying high quality, but financially distressed ships and shipping lines, and remarketing them for operation under the US flag to US shipowners.
“feigned disbelief”? his disbelief isn’t feigned at all! he knows the reaction he will receive but is utterly intent to disparage the USA and anything to do with the USA at any turn. He wants this nation to go sink into the depths. Why of course is a valid question but I don’t care why he feels like he does. All I care about is how one man can come on here as a very small minority to tell a great majority (of which I am one) that we deserve to sink! If there is a similar forum to this one for Norske seafarers to have discussions, I sincerely doubt there are any Americans there telling our Norwegian fellows that they are a backwater who need to suck it up and then lay down and die without so much as a whimper? Of course, Ombugge will retort here now that the reason there aren’t is that no American could because Norwegians are all so superior in every respect. Norway has achieved a tremendous position in global ship technology and has a strong maritime industry which I am envious of. I also sincerely doubt that hasn’t happened without any form of assistance from the Norwegian government. Hell, they have a massive sovereign wealth fund to use to build what they have. Lucky them.
the USA for whatever our faults is still a strong economy and still retains industry in our land. The maritime industry in the US is far from dead and buried. We have the capability to build ships here albeit at a higher cost than in China or Korea and I want him to tell us with a straight face that the cost to build ships in Norway is not also higher than in those two countries nor are Norwegian seafarers willing to work at the same wages as those from the Philippines or India? There is a reason that Norway has what it has and that is as a result of policies that favor and protect their maritime sector so why on earth should the USA not have the same be it the Jones Act or legislation that reserves a percentage of its exports of energy to US flagged ships?
YOUR TURN HERE BUGGE…give us your best shot to convince us you are right in your views but be prepared for the blowback because you’ll be getting plenty from all of us Americans here including myself!
What you are proposing sounds very much like what was espoused by the United Nations Committee for Trade and Development (UNCTAD) in the Code of Conduct for Liner Conferences which set up a system of bi-lateral trade agreements for nations that reserved quotas for each country of 40% apiece of the two countries’ trade with each other for ship’s under their own flag and 20% up for grabs to “cross-traders” of any flag. This was proposed in several forms from the 1970s on, including one regarding transport of oil after the first oil crisis, which passed both the house and the senate only to be “pocket” vetoed by President Ford. I imagine many our career destinies would have been quite different if any of these had come to fruition. I wonder if the VP at the time Nelson Rockfeller (Standard Oil) had anything to say about this to Ford?
It was initiated by the US and killed by the US:
As of 2008 it was effectively dead:
I wasn’t going to add anything more here, after your bad mannered post earlier, but since you so kindly (for you) invited me to do so, how could I decline?
First of all; I don’t have any reasons to want US Mariners, USMM or anything else US any ill, nor do I bear any grouches, or suffer any inferiority complexes because of some incident(s) in the past.
I have worked for, or with, dozens of American companies and with thousands of Americans of all stripes (as well as other nationalities) in my 40+ year career in the Offshore Marine business worldwide. In my line of work as Freelance Marine Consultant/Surveyor/Adviser/Manager, or as Rigmover/Towmaster/Loadmaster, nationality is NOT the main criteria for judging anything or anybody.
Let me just restate; nationality is NOT a maritime qualification, nor do I believe that any one nationality (Norwegian or American incl.) has any advantage over others in their seamanship ability.
As to the idea that the US, or anybody, could or should be able to dictate how world trade and international shipping is conducted. That is the business of WTO and IMO to determine, after a consensus between involved nations. The days when the Europeans and Americans could dictate is long gone.
Today China is the world’s largest trading nation, with India being the fastest growing major economy, with several other developing countries also catching up and want a say so in how world trade, commerce and shipping is conducted.
Besides; which major trading nation has a fleet capable of carrying even 50% of their trade on ships under their own flag, manned by their own nationals, not to mention built at national yards? China would be the one that come closes. but they do not have any intention to do so by unilateral decree. (In free competition, yes they would like to)
As to whether there are any Norwegians that harbour ideas similar to yours when it come to who should man the ships under Norwegian flag? Oh yes there are plenty, but it is very little realistic that it could ever be the case again. Would the same people accept ITF wages to compete with East Europeans and Filipinos? No they would not, nor is anybody asking them to. Even many ships in coastal trade are flying foreign flag, or are NIS registered and manned by mostly foreigners. (Norway does not have a cabotage law) Only vessels under NOR flag have some protection for Norwegians, or those carrying passengers in national waters but, since Norway is member of EEA, thus associated with EU, there are freedom of travel and labour for EU nationals. So EU nationals with the necessary qualifications according to STCW can get jobs on NOR flag ships at Norwegian wages, paying Norwegian tax and enjoying Norwegian benefits.
As to the need for ships and seafarers in case of war? Well, if there is a war between major power, like US, Russia or China, it would probably be over before you could get either the ships or the seafarers out of mothballs. The possibility that anybody would start such a war minimal. Since neither Putin or Xi Jiangpeng are suicidal, I don’t see them trying
For the proxy wars, war against terror and drugs, or whatever, the need for transportation can be covered by commercial shipping a lot cheaper, safer and more efficiently then to keep a fleet of old, inefficient and obsolete ships in semi-cold layup.
VLGCs and VLCCs have little strategic importance in that respect.
As I have said before, the only way to keep a viable national fleet is to keep them active. (The same goes for seafarers)
That can only be done by being commercially competitive in world trade.Look at how that can be done, not by trying to force shippers to pay a premium for the privilege of shipping their commodities on your ships.
OK, now back to you, but please try to keep it civilised this time.
The level playing field you espouse cannot be created with the WTO or ITF for the very reasons that one) shipowners have many ways to circumvent the conventions and two) there is a global pool of labor who would rather work for less that what some convention says they “should” earn.with a tilted playing surface, those who pay low make it pretty dammed tough to stay in the game for high wage earners…UNLESS…
governments in those high wage provinces (read USA) take initiative on a national level to create demand for high wage workers. They do this through cabotage and cargo preference laws. Your belief such laws are anathema in US culture is WRONG! The US really only started to give away the store in 1980 when Ronald Raygun became president. I have suffered the result now for 4 decades but there is no good reason another president one day won’t start to set things back to where the US flag fleet is not what it is today. It won’t be the assclown who is pretending to be leading this nation but at least Reps Garamedi and Wicker are trying here.
Now please stay the FUCK out a topic that doesn’t concern you…and I still say you are a miserable cocksucker for wading in to this thread in the first place.