Letter sent to Trump administration urges support of U.S.-flag vessels

Maritime News
#14

Yet another call from our resident globalist that we in the first world should gladly either give up our jobs to the third world or compete with the wages acceptable in the third world… inevitably followed by the incredulous look of feigned disbelief when there is abject rejection of that idea by the forum participants here…

I don’t expect the Chinese to advocate for the American worker as that’s not their job… It’s the job of our elected officials and it’s refreshing to see some actually doing so.

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#15

Not just my career sector… ALL career sectors.

And not corporate welfare… Corporate investment. Example, for every H1-B Visa issued, the company is required to hire a US citizen in that same capacity (at the same rate of pay) as an apprentice. Let the foreign “expert” train the expensive American to replace HIM instead of the other way around.

#16

The US should reserve one third of all exports and imports for US flag ships (which under existing law may be foreign built). Another third of US imports and exports should be reserved for our trading partners, and the final third of US import and export shipping should be open to anyone.

Most people do not realize it, but the US needs a viable shipping industry with US flag ships, together with the necessary manufacturing and support services in order to be economically secure and successful over the long term. Shipping is a key component of a successful economy. The present approach of allowing US flag deep draft shipping to become extinct is not economically sustainable for the US.

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#17

Lest we also forget that a lot of countries like China deeply subsidize and/or flat out own national shipping companies. It’s not exactly easy to compete with a company who can literally print money at will. Just look at the recent China Shipping and COSCO merger. Closer akin to merging two government agencies than a business merger.

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#18

MARAD should be jumping into the global market place and buying high quality, but financially distressed ships and shipping lines, and remarketing them for operation under the US flag to US shipowners.

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#19

“feigned disbelief”? his disbelief isn’t feigned at all! he knows the reaction he will receive but is utterly intent to disparage the USA and anything to do with the USA at any turn. He wants this nation to go sink into the depths. Why of course is a valid question but I don’t care why he feels like he does. All I care about is how one man can come on here as a very small minority to tell a great majority (of which I am one) that we deserve to sink! If there is a similar forum to this one for Norske seafarers to have discussions, I sincerely doubt there are any Americans there telling our Norwegian fellows that they are a backwater who need to suck it up and then lay down and die without so much as a whimper? Of course, Ombugge will retort here now that the reason there aren’t is that no American could because Norwegians are all so superior in every respect. Norway has achieved a tremendous position in global ship technology and has a strong maritime industry which I am envious of. I also sincerely doubt that hasn’t happened without any form of assistance from the Norwegian government. Hell, they have a massive sovereign wealth fund to use to build what they have. Lucky them.

the USA for whatever our faults is still a strong economy and still retains industry in our land. The maritime industry in the US is far from dead and buried. We have the capability to build ships here albeit at a higher cost than in China or Korea and I want him to tell us with a straight face that the cost to build ships in Norway is not also higher than in those two countries nor are Norwegian seafarers willing to work at the same wages as those from the Philippines or India? There is a reason that Norway has what it has and that is as a result of policies that favor and protect their maritime sector so why on earth should the USA not have the same be it the Jones Act or legislation that reserves a percentage of its exports of energy to US flagged ships?

YOUR TURN HERE BUGGE…give us your best shot to convince us you are right in your views but be prepared for the blowback because you’ll be getting plenty from all of us Americans here including myself!

Differences of Opinion
#20

What you are proposing sounds very much like what was espoused by the United Nations Committee for Trade and Development (UNCTAD) in the Code of Conduct for Liner Conferences which set up a system of bi-lateral trade agreements for nations that reserved quotas for each country of 40% apiece of the two countries’ trade with each other for ship’s under their own flag and 20% up for grabs to “cross-traders” of any flag. This was proposed in several forms from the 1970s on, including one regarding transport of oil after the first oil crisis, which passed both the house and the senate only to be “pocket” vetoed by President Ford. I imagine many our career destinies would have been quite different if any of these had come to fruition. I wonder if the VP at the time Nelson Rockfeller (Standard Oil) had anything to say about this to Ford?

#21

It was initiated by the US and killed by the US:


As of 2008 it was effectively dead:

#22

I wasn’t going to add anything more here, after your bad mannered post earlier, but since you so kindly (for you) invited me to do so, how could I decline?

First of all; I don’t have any reasons to want US Mariners, USMM or anything else US any ill, nor do I bear any grouches, or suffer any inferiority complexes because of some incident(s) in the past.

I have worked for, or with, dozens of American companies and with thousands of Americans of all stripes (as well as other nationalities) in my 40+ year career in the Offshore Marine business worldwide. In my line of work as Freelance Marine Consultant/Surveyor/Adviser/Manager, or as Rigmover/Towmaster/Loadmaster, nationality is NOT the main criteria for judging anything or anybody.

Let me just restate; nationality is NOT a maritime qualification, nor do I believe that any one nationality (Norwegian or American incl.) has any advantage over others in their seamanship ability.

As to the idea that the US, or anybody, could or should be able to dictate how world trade and international shipping is conducted. That is the business of WTO and IMO to determine, after a consensus between involved nations. The days when the Europeans and Americans could dictate is long gone.

Today China is the world’s largest trading nation, with India being the fastest growing major economy, with several other developing countries also catching up and want a say so in how world trade, commerce and shipping is conducted.

Besides; which major trading nation has a fleet capable of carrying even 50% of their trade on ships under their own flag, manned by their own nationals, not to mention built at national yards? China would be the one that come closes. but they do not have any intention to do so by unilateral decree. (In free competition, yes they would like to)

As to whether there are any Norwegians that harbour ideas similar to yours when it come to who should man the ships under Norwegian flag? Oh yes there are plenty, but it is very little realistic that it could ever be the case again. Would the same people accept ITF wages to compete with East Europeans and Filipinos? No they would not, nor is anybody asking them to. Even many ships in coastal trade are flying foreign flag, or are NIS registered and manned by mostly foreigners. (Norway does not have a cabotage law) Only vessels under NOR flag have some protection for Norwegians, or those carrying passengers in national waters but, since Norway is member of EEA, thus associated with EU, there are freedom of travel and labour for EU nationals. So EU nationals with the necessary qualifications according to STCW can get jobs on NOR flag ships at Norwegian wages, paying Norwegian tax and enjoying Norwegian benefits.

As to the need for ships and seafarers in case of war? Well, if there is a war between major power, like US, Russia or China, it would probably be over before you could get either the ships or the seafarers out of mothballs. The possibility that anybody would start such a war minimal. Since neither Putin or Xi Jiangpeng are suicidal, I don’t see them trying

For the proxy wars, war against terror and drugs, or whatever, the need for transportation can be covered by commercial shipping a lot cheaper, safer and more efficiently then to keep a fleet of old, inefficient and obsolete ships in semi-cold layup.
VLGCs and VLCCs have little strategic importance in that respect.

As I have said before, the only way to keep a viable national fleet is to keep them active. (The same goes for seafarers)
That can only be done by being commercially competitive in world trade.Look at how that can be done, not by trying to force shippers to pay a premium for the privilege of shipping their commodities on your ships.

OK, now back to you, but please try to keep it civilised this time.

#23

The level playing field you espouse cannot be created with the WTO or ITF for the very reasons that one) shipowners have many ways to circumvent the conventions and two) there is a global pool of labor who would rather work for less that what some convention says they “should” earn.with a tilted playing surface, those who pay low make it pretty dammed tough to stay in the game for high wage earners…UNLESS…

governments in those high wage provinces (read USA) take initiative on a national level to create demand for high wage workers. They do this through cabotage and cargo preference laws. Your belief such laws are anathema in US culture is WRONG! The US really only started to give away the store in 1980 when Ronald Raygun became president. I have suffered the result now for 4 decades but there is no good reason another president one day won’t start to set things back to where the US flag fleet is not what it is today. It won’t be the assclown who is pretending to be leading this nation but at least Reps Garamedi and Wicker are trying here.

Now please stay the FUCK out a topic that doesn’t concern you…and I still say you are a miserable cocksucker for wading in to this thread in the first place.

Cheers…

#24

Are you sure you’re not just a miserable fucker to work with?

Btw, all the Mickey Mouse ship registries are run by Americans. So you are to blame that world shipping is fucked.

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#25

You obviously are unable to have a civilised conversation, or to understand simple facts.

I presume that is inevitable if you spend your whole life circling around in a gulf in the north and another in the south of the same country, while working with like minded people, with no exposure to the world outside.
Oh I forgot, with the odd trip to another gulf, but still with the same people around you.

You should get out more, see different things and places and meet people with different backgrounds and experiences.
Maybe you could learn something from that. (Like manners)

#26

Boo hoo…I am sure you realize that I lose sleep at night knowing you don’t like my manners. In fact, I don’t care much for them myself!

However, as far as my feelings toward you go, you don’t warrant any genteel treatment from me. You repeatedly insert yourself into topics which you (or Norway) has not one iota of standing. I consider your entering this thread with your IMHO that the USA is purely a open free market nation as not accurate in the least. All big economies have some form of protectionism for their industries (including Norway’s) and you have no right whatsoever to say that the proposed legislation to reserve exports of US produced gas and oil for US flag vessels is wrong. Norway is not an importer of US energy so you have no dog in this fight so again I ask you to stay out of it and all others where you have no vested interest. You are disrespecting all of us who do! Please cease and desist from here on out.

And that also goes for your yappy poodledog Kraken too!

#27

The ships built by GD Quincy (10) and Newport News (3) were good ships. The ones built by Avondale never made it out of the gate. The 3 LNG tankers Avondale attempted to build for El Paso in 1979 never sailed as LNG tankers as the containment membranes were found to have cracks. El Paso refused acceptance.

It wasn’t a complete loss as the Avondale ships were later converted to OBO’s and one later to a FSO. Not exactly a bargain at $100 million each in 1979.

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#28

and nothing gives me greater pleasure than for me to tell you to…

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#29

You have simple pleasures.

#30

so what if I do? I also find it most enjoyable to scoop up slugs with my shovel and toss them into the road then watch until a big truck flattens them!

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#31

Maybe g.captain shop could stock some of these, only with “Truck Driver” being replaced with “Mariner”??:

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Should be a good market for it.

#32

You’re right, there SHOULD be. That’s because the typical user of this forum has the most to lose if your hybrid globalist/communist/socialist vision becomes reality.

Tell you what, place an order in your favorite Chinese/Burmese/Shthole-istan sweatshop for t shirts with YOUR mantra of “skilled labor is to be replaced, cheap labor is good enough” and see which one sells better. Problem is, the people who would be for that policy can’t afford to buy the shirts they work 16 hours a day to make.

The characterization of you and labels applied by @c.captain earlier in this thread and in many others are spot on.

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#33

Literally every thread is going to be about Norwegian superiority. Even though this one is about U.S. flag shipping we are talking about Norway.

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