So the new slogan is “give me liberty and death” 
Another fan of the abstract concept of “liberty”…anyway, why do you think all conservatives are rich? I’m certainly not. Why is it a rich person’s perspective that we should want a balance between what liberties must be sacrificed in the interest of public safety? I mean, I guess we could just all stay indoors all the time (pandemic or not) and we’d enjoy a maximum level of safety right? But what kind of life would that be?
No snappy slogan. Just apply common sense to the data and get the country back to work when, where, and as we can.
I don’t think all conservatives are rich. But I generally am thinking they believe they are in a place where their own relative prosperity insulated them, and in return, they demand the full exercise of such privileges, commensurate with their wealth and the expectation that everyone else will step aside or the American liberty is all false, and they will demand to speak to the manager!!!
Not a great one, so the government, to effectively keep us all enjoying all these blessings of liberty needs to be proactive, vigilant, alert and preventive. In this particular instance, it should maintain a solid international surveillance, especially in hot spots and perhaps maintain a White House, NSC level pandemic office instead of expecting that they can ‘hire people whenever they need them’, and have the greatest testing regime in the world, the best data, the biggest stockpiles of ready to go PPE to allow the health care system and economy to function at peak, legal measures like the Defense Production Act ready for re-orient the production, to ensure the best decisions can be made and the least impact to the precious liberties whether it be heirloom tomato growing, haircuts, fishing or strip clubs.
" six semi-autonomous regional offices and 150 field offices worldwide."
the WHO’s statement to the world that its not a pandemic hence you dont need to do anything, knowing full well it will become a pandemic.
So let it spread to the 4 corners of the world then we will re access…DOH
How is this different than liberals? I could see a soccer mom with a Hillary '16 sticker in the back window of her Tahoe demanding to speak to the manager as much as a stereotypical conservative. But on this note, what’s wrong with any American (regardless of political affiliation) having a certain standard they want to see met? Whether it’s pushing back if they think their govt. is overreaching, or their fries are cold or anything in between?
I don’t disagree with these things but most of those are things to be corrected after getting over this. What I’m talking about is how to get from where we are now to where we want to be.
The ‘liberals’—for the purposes of this hypothetical—-believe in and put in place proactive mechanisms to detect and respond that were removed, not because of any lack of threat, it’s unclear why they were removed. Valid question for the manager.
You mean calling it the Wuhan flu hasn’t made any headway? What do you recommend the Federal government try next? How about a massive federally supported coordination of testing and medical response capability? Or should everyone just let their insurance handle this?
No, that is not the hypothetical I asked about, but in fairness, it was off topic, so I’ll let it die.
I agree…we definitely should have gone with “Kung Flu” as the name, but I wasn’t consulted on that.
Is that not already underway? They covered this extensively during Friday’s briefing…not sure if it was carried on your network of choice.
Yeah, those briefings are loaded with…
Well let’s just focus—-Apparently it isn’t to meet the government’s guidelines:
Oh, and the failure of the US government to accept the WHO test and CDC failure surely impacted ability to deploy testing, right?
The testing portion was given by Birx and Fauci. Are you saying they don’t know what they are talking about?
Here is what she presented in case you haven’t seen it:
Which part of this do you disagree with?
Look at you, suggesting that if there’s any BS in the WH briefing the people who are being held hostage to their own humanity have the responsibility to accept any errors? So funny.
Friday Briefing Newstory:
White House insists US has ‘sufficient’ testing capacity to reopen amid widespread criticism
Mike Pence says US has enough tests for ‘phase one’ of process but taskforce experts acknowledge uncertainty
…
Mike Pence, the vice-president, insisted on Friday that there were enough tests to enable states to follow the first phase of federal guidelines released 24 hours earlier. But the coronavirus response coordinator, Dr Deborah Birx, admitted that phase two remained uncertain because of the difficulty of testing people who carry the virus but do not show symptoms.
“Our best scientists and health experts assess that today we have a sufficient amount of testing to meet the requirements of a phase one reopening if state governors should choose to do that,” Pence told reporters in a lengthy briefing dominated by the issue.
Dr Brett Giroir, the assistant secretary for health, added that the US would need to conduct about 4.5m tests each month to safely enter phase one. It is currently carrying out about 1m to 1.2m a week.
…
When Birx was asked whether testing capacity was sufficient for phase two, she replied: “That’s a great question, and what we will be doing is monitoring how much we have to use in phase one to really help inform phase two.”
She admitted: “The real unknown in this, to be completely transparent, is asymptomatic and asymptomatic spread, and so if we find that there’s a lot of asymptomatic individuals that we find in this active monitoring in what we are very much concerned about, the most vulnerable, then we will have to have increased testing to cover all of those sites.”
Pence also emphasised that states, not the federal government, would have to take responsibility for testing programmes. The absence of a national testing strategy is seen by critics as an attempt by the White House to avoid blame if problems arise.
Well, look at you, refusing to answer a simple question. Really? “People being held hostage to their own humanity”? Over dramatic much?
@anybody else, any comments on the WH’s ‘Opening Up America Again’ plan as linked above?
From what I have read it is not just the testing that has to step up but widespread random testing outside places like supermarkets. To think about moving from the level 4 that is the most restricted to level 3 that allows online orders of most items the scientists are recommending traceability. Because supermarkets don’t accept cash you can be traced by the plastic you pay with. Businesses will require a log to be kept of all persons who transact business with them. When I went to the liquor store a masked and gowned women took my details on an iPad, a similarly gowned bloke took my order. I did not enter the store, my order was brought to a table outside and I was given hand sanitizer before using the eftpos machine.
I would be interested in what people think about having to supply their names and addresses to access services.
That document is not a plan. It’s an abdication of responsibility.It invites individual states to come to the rescue, but fails to provide the necessary tools to do so.
In its defense, it calls itself a guideline and not a plan. But even that is a stretch. It’s essentially an aspirational outline. Taken at face value, the metrics are undefined, and the testing has not been provided for. At a mimimum, the DPA needs to be implemented in order for all of the tests AND testing materials to be produced in adequate numbers. Only the federal government can make that happen.
This guy was happy to spell out the obvious in detail.
Trump Is Asking Us to Play Russian Roulette With Our Lives https://nyti.ms/2Kh47Wc
Opinion
Trump Is Asking Us to Play Russian Roulette With Our Lives
Are we really going to bet that we can go back to life as normal without proper coronavirus tracking in place?
Opinion Columnist
- April 18, 2020
Image
President Trump in the White House briefing room on Thursday. Credit…Doug Mills/The New York Times
“LIBERATE MINNESOTA!” “LIBERATE MICHIGAN!” “LIBERATE VIRGINIA.”
With these three short tweets last week, President Trump attempted to kick off the post-lockdown phase of America’s coronavirus crisis. It should be called: “American Russian roulette: The Covid-19 version.’’
What Trump was saying with those tweets was: Everybody just go back to work. From now on, each of us individually, and our society collectively, is going to play Russian roulette. We’re going to bet that we can spin through our daily lives — work, shopping, school, travel — without the coronavirus landing on us. And if it does, we’ll also bet that it won’t kill us.
More specifically: As a society, we will be betting that as large numbers of people stop sheltering in place, the number of people who will still get infected with Covid-19 and require hospitalization will be less than the number of hospital beds, intensive care units, respirators, doctors, nurses and protective gear needed to take care of them.
Because it is clear that millions of Americans are going to stop sheltering in place — their own President is now urging them to liberate themselves — before we have a proper testing, tracking and tracing system set up. Until we have a vaccine, that kind of system is the only path to dramatically lowering the risk of infection while partially opening society — while also protecting the elderly and infirm — as Germany has demonstrated.
And as individuals, every person will be playing Russian roulette every minute of every day: Do I get on this crowded bus to go to work or not? What if I get on the subway and the person next to me is not wearing gloves and a mask? What if they sneeze? Do I get in the elevator at the office if there is another person on it? Do I go into the office lunchroom or not? Do I stop for a drink at this bar, where the stools are six feet apart, or that crowded one my friends chose? Do I use this toilet or that drinking fountain? Do I send my kid back to school or not? Do I stay in a hotel? Ride an airplane? Let the plumber in? Do I go to the doctor to check that strange lump or not?
What will be so cruel about this American version of Russian roulette is how unfair it will be. Some people will have no choice but to take the subway or the bus to work. Some people will have to send their kids back to school because they can’t afford to stay home from work. Some bosses will demand that their employees show up to reopen their workplace, but some of those employees may be afraid to come back. Do you fire them? Do they bring a lawsuit against you if you do, or do they go on Twitter and post a picture of how closely together you forced them to work — six inches apart, not six feet?
This is the state of play when you have a president who one minute is responsibly issuing sober guidelines for when and how people should go back to work, and the next minute is telling states that they are responsible for getting the testing, tracking and tracing units that we need in place and then, in the third minute, is inciting people on Twitter to “liberate” their workplaces, cities and beaches — even though none of the conditions are in place to do so safely.
“Liberate”? Think about the use of that word. We were not in jail! We were not doing something wrong! We were doing what our president, governor, mayor, and national epidemic experts told us to do: behave responsibly and shelter in place to break the transmission of this virus.
Trump was cynically trying to curry favor with his base by implying that the Democratic governors, following his own national guidelines, were unfairly locking people up, depriving them of their livelihoods. Is there anything more irresponsible that this president could do, after weeks of complimenting the American people for how they pulled together and sacrificed to shelter in place — patriotically doing their part to bend the curve of this virus?
So, folks, forget about all those White House briefings. You don’t have to tune in another day. When the president is calling on governors to “let their people go” before comprehensive testing facilities are in place, he is basically saying that, until there is a vaccine, we are betting on herd immunity. Achieving herd immunity requires that more than two-thirds of a community be immune, a process that could involve many more deaths, if proper preparations are not in place.
That may work out for some places and people. It may not. I do not know. Every choice in dealing with this virus is fraught with huge tradeoffs between saving lives and saving the economy that sustains lives. I just know three things:
First, this is the bet Trump is urging you to make in his “liberate” tweets — when he should be ordering out the National Guard and mobilizing American industry to get testing everywhere.
Second, this bet will fall very unfairly and unevenly in our society, when so little testing and tracing is in place.
And third, if this is the future, every business, restaurant, hotel, theater, sporting facility, factory, nonprofit and government office needs to ask itself: What does my business look like when, on the best days, the responsible people coming to my door will be wearing a mask, gloves, distancing six feet apart and volunteering to have their temperature taken before they enter, and the irresponsible ones won’t be? How do I handle that? Whom do I serve? What kind of business will I really have? Because that will be our economy until we have a vaccine or have established herd immunity.
Bottom line, my fellow Americans: Your president is telling you that you’re on your own to make these decisions. And if this strategy works, you can be sure that he will take credit. And if it doesn’t, you can be sure that he will tweet that it was all Anthony Fauci’s idea.
I have no quarrel with anything you argue here. By all means let citizens in their counties agree on alternative plans, based on science, and propose them to their governors in a calm, reasonable way.
What I have problem with are people (not you) who use the word Liberty, and the concept of liberty, to demonize people they disagree with. Here’s part of a Facebook post from the group that calls itself Liberate Minnesota. I’ve edited it for space (…) and put the trenchant parts in bold:
“…The fact is, our freedoms and economy are under full blown attack by a radical anti-American Governor -- and we must act quickly if we are going to save them!..Small businesses are shuttering by the thousands across our state, and families and retirees are watching their life’s work be destroyed in front of their eyes…On top of that, Gov. Walz is using this entire situation to launch a full blown attack on the citizens of Minnesota, not to save lives, but to strip away and annihilate the freedoms that we enjoy!”.
(END)
Here the concept of liberty is used to promote paranoid far-rightwing fever dreams. A person making a rational decision to save lives is demonized as “anti-American”. This usage of the concept of “liberty” is to liberty, as “salisbury steak” is to steak. There is no real comparison.
You brought up a lot of important problems involving distancing, isolation, and geography. In regards to organizations like Liberate Minnesota, it would be interesting to see the detailed plans they have drawn up, based on reasonable scientific precautions, reviewed by physicians and county officials, which they have submitted to their governor, as an alternative to a blanket statewide plan.
My guess? They haven’t come up with such a plan. They haven’t put in the time and effort. It’s more dramatic to run around and chant “liberty" and call people radicals and traitors.
By the way: it takes time to make tweets. Maybe an hour a day. Maybe more. Presuming someone is thinking about what they are doing. That’s about 6% of the waking day. It might be productive if that hour, that 6% of the day, was spent on coming up with an alternative COVID19 plan for rural areas, based on discussions with scientists, etc. But that’s not happening. What we get are tweets: LIBERATE MINNESOTA.
At a quick glance I think Phase 1 seems fairly reasonable. With the exception of places like Movie Theaters and Gyms. I don’t think theaters lend themselves to the intent of distancing when you have people in a closed space for hours. Or gyms where people are (or should be?) breathing heavily, dripping sweat, and touching common equipment.
One issue in general I see (and not one I’d expect to be addressed in a guideline) is deciding who returns to work based on home-life situations. If your employer is permitted to reopen, and you live with someone who is immune-compromised or otherwise high risk, if you chose not to return are you then fireable? Are you still able to collect unemployment? Something that hopefully will be considered in time.
As far as guidance document, which all it purports to be on its face, it seems reasonable so long as states figure out how to quantify that they’ve met the gating criteria.
No bars till phase two?!?!?
And finally, unrelated, “Kung Flu” would have been a great team name for Trivia Night before this damn shelter-in-place.
Go to China if you want communism’: Anti-quarantine protester clashes with people in scrubs
(From today’s WAPO)
People in medical scrubs stand in the street to counterprotest the hundreds of people who gathered at the state capitol in Denver on April 19 to demand the stay-at-home order be lifted. (Alyson McClaran/Reuters)
They faced each other in a busy intersection in downtown Denver, the din of honking cars blaring around them. The man, wearing turquoise medical scrubs and an N95 mask, stood silent and resolute, blocking traffic in the middle of the road.
Opposite him, an unidentified blond woman poked her head out the window of a silver Dodge truck.
“This is a free country. Land of the free,” she yelled at him, pulling out a homemade poster displaying those very words. “Go to China if you want communism. Go to China.”
Video footage of the confrontation, originally shared to Twitter by a user named Marc Zenn, has since been viewed more than 8 million times. On social media, some said it was made for the history books. Others called for the Pulitzer Prizes to take a look. One tweet simply said, “This is America.”
Video here:
the land of the free until you need medical help…
At the rate things are going Covid 19 will by sometime in May have killed as many US citizens as died in the 20 year Vietnam War. Of course the Vietnamese lost exponentially more during the war BUT have reported no deaths from Covid 19. When I mentioned this to a Vietnamese friend he said," I don’t believe in karma but?" Had to laugh.
I’ve been in New Orleans for 2 hours and I already know why there are so many virus cases here. There are a large number of “surviving challenged” people running around.