Understanding China

I’ll say this: China has made great strides in the past few decades. A few generations ago they killed more people (their own people) then Hitler, Stalin, every war but one (but it was close) or every global pandemic except perhaps the Spanish Flu of 1918.

That China has advanced from a singular killing machine to not slaughtering every man, woman and child in Hong Kong is a huge improvement that deserves recognition.

Perhaps they recognized the 1989 Tiananmen Square Massacre delayed their joining of the World Trade Organization and set back their ascendency on the world stage by many years?

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yes they joined the WTO then only now thanks to Trump they might have almost decided to follow the rules of that club

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That’s too complicated, they all begin with a C. Go for which hemisphere first. :wink:

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I think that is true and they are evolving still. The comparison to other atrocities is irrelevant and meaningless. Sure China killed more of their own people than Stalin but if Stalin had as many available to kill he would have probably killed more. Hitler likewise was running out of people to kill. The “but whatabout” argument is meaningless and is just a distraction to the current situation. I personally saw Pol Pot and his band of merry men commit unspeakable acts that cause nightmares to this day but I can go to Cambodia and see how people and government evolved, it’s still a work in progress. China is a force that we all must come to grips with. Trying to bully them is a fools errand. When Europe and other western countries’ corporations went running to China to make quick money they did so at their own peril and to complain now is just an example of their greed over coming their limited knowledge of history and culture. Since these corporations own the governments of the countries they came from they are no better or worse than the Chinese. Until there is a change in governmental values there is no moral high ground for any of them or the Chinese.


I’m certainly no China apologist or sympathizer but I believe it is appropriate to recognize the improvement in their behavior over these past decades. The China of not too long ago thought little about killing off their own people. In 1960 they starved and slaughtered many millions who expressed no ill will. In 1989 they killed many thousands who resisted peacefully. Now in 2019 they haven’t killed the people marching in the streets rioting for change.

I believe there are two reasons for this. First, China has gotten better at messaging (propaganda). They’ve been pointing to the riots as proof of foreign interference to bolster domestic support for a stronger China. Everyone does that. United States after 9/11, Iran against the Great Satan, Israel against the Arab states. It doesn’t matter if the threat is real, exaggerated or imagined. It’s an effective boogeyman.

The second reason is practical. Dead people on TV risk other countries using that as an excuse to isolate China and slow their growth. Chinese tanks rolling into Hong Kong and crushing bodies into the streets won’t win the hearts and wallets of foreign businesses and foreign consumers. Isolation and containment of China would certainly increase. That would cause growth to stall or reverse which would threaten the regime.

Whatever the reason, it’s good that China is acting in a more civilized way.

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I don’t know if you realise it, but your argument work both ways. The rest of the world looks at what the US do and say, not only China.

except the body count in China is higher and the Gov did it thats a huge difference.
Like Syria, Libya, Iraq, Yemen, cambodia, liberia, sudan etc killed plenty without outside.

Interesting you say that.
Here in the UK, Solicitors are not allowed to store certain personal data with US companies on account of US homeland security legislation that allows the US government to demand access to absolutely all data held by US companies… That includes customer personal data of UK individuals if held.

HK finally figure out that they need security laws to tackle the present unrest:

If you use a Huawei phone you are owned as when you build it you must give access to all data away to some 3rd party…
Dont forget US tech companies get run out of town in China for refusing to hand over data to the Chinese gov so clearly alibaba will hand over anything?
For the Chinese population the gov already has all their data
Jack Ma leaving soon…( so he stays alive)

and so it begins…

In fairness, based on the account I read, I support the cop’s action. If you approach and attack an armed cop, don’t be surprised if you get shot (i.e, Micheal Brown).

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If you threaten an Ozzie cop, expect to die, that can be verbal…

Cant remember any cop ever being charged and once in the 90’s they got the world record for killing more people in one week than any other Police force in the world…
all dead with one shot.
Us ozzies are proud of that.
They only carried revolvers then and as the Police Chief said, our guys only need one shot and we only train them to shoot to kill.

Their prefect record was undone the other day when a Policewomen wounded an assailant and a bystander. Thats never happened before, it should be one dead nobody else injured.
That must be like the first pilot to crash a Qantas plane?

One person set on fire and another shot and seriously wounded by police during the day and night of rioting in HK. Sever MTR stations trashed and fires started to make maximum mayhem. Here is a chronological report of the events for those who have and interest in facts:

This cannot go on much longer and, liked Carrie Lam have stated; it is wishful thinking that this will make any policy change, at least not in the direction the rioters claim they want, possible:

More likely it will change to a harder line and less freedoms for Hong Kong then have been enjoyed the last 3 decades. (Since 1984)

It will also result in a slowdown, if not permanent decline in the economy. Who wants to invest in a place where violent demonstrations break out every few years.
What is most amazing is that the Central Government has allowed this to go on this long and this far. It is a clear sign that the importance of HK to the Chinese economy.
As long as the people on the mainland is largely against the goings on and the unrest doesn’t spread, they leave it to the HK Gov. to sort out the mess.

If commerce in HK is disrupted there will be major implications for all countries and their economies. China is playing a dangerous game here. There is some mainland support for Hong Kong. My guess is China quickly quiets down and let things cool off.

cant believe Carrie Lam is still there

Is this what you are supporting, trashing their own campus and blocking streets to stop normal business for the majority of people in HK?:

It is VERY unlikely to succeed in making a more free, fair and democratic HK, On the contrary, it is like to hurt HK in the long run.
Will it win votes for Trump in 2020 to pretend that he care one iota about the welfare of the Hongkeys, or about democracy? Probably.

You now remind me of those crazy (often homeless) people that think everyone links back to Trump. Most in America are really not that interested in what goes on in China or HK. Trump wouldn’t be interested either, except he is trying to win a trade war. I doubt he cares much about implications for democracy.

I only recently tuned into some of the recent videos. It looks like bad stuff, but in the spirit of ombugge, why not just let HK sort it out. I’m sure they will. The US won’t be interfering beyond some political fop issuing sound bites. So it would be great if you could stop making your wacky pitches about what we are or are not supporting.

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No, I’m not crazy, not homeless and don’t think much of Trump. What is there to think about? You just need to follow the news stories from various sources to realise that he is not worth wasting time to think about.

I agree with this statement in full. We appear to agree on more point than you care to admit.

Including on this point. If nobody interfere this will blow over, but as long as somebody sees it as a point in their domestic policy it will just escalate. If the US politicians would stop playing policy with everything and stick to handling their domestic problems (God knows there are enough) this MAY go away. If that happen I’ll gladly stop making any pitches, wacky or not, what you are, or what are supporting.

Meanwhile the situation in HK is getting worse and foreign and mainland students are packing up to leave, if they can get out of the campuses that is:

You are a piece of work if you believe that the protests in HK are the fault of US policy. As for Trump, you are the one who keeps inserting your conjectures on his desires into this thread. From recent Washington Post editorial:

Trump’s indifference to the plight of Hong Kongers has long been clear. In August, he referred to the protests as “riots,” parroting Beijing’s line, and said the United States would not get involved. The State Department has muffled officials from speaking out against Beijing’s handling of the crisis.

So what more do you want? Please stop your ranting about how this is all our fault.