Understanding China

Scuttlebutt
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China is huge in more ways than one, which is difficult for many in the western world to comprehend.

Yes we know that China has a population of “approx. 1.3 Bn.” as it has been banded around for a long time.

But when they make a small miscalculation of the population it puts China into perspective: http://www.scmp.com/news/china/polic...esearchers-say

Yet it doesn’t sound so much when you say; “OK so it isn’t 1.38 Bn. ONLY 1.29 Bn. people living in China, it’s still Approx. 1.3 Bn.”

But that is a difference of abt. 90 Mill., or more than 1/4 of the US population, (Abt. 17 times the population of Norway, or Singapore)

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China is taking it’s rightful place in the maritime world as one of the largest shipowning and operating countries. Here is The Economist’s statistics for 2015, showing both owned and registered vessels in DWT and total number of vessels: http://www.economist.com/news/economic-and-financial-indicators/21674507-merchant-fleets

The order is little changed in 2017, according to Marine Insight: http://www.marineinsight.com/infographics-2/infographic-top-10-ship-owning-nations-2017/

China is also getting to where it wants to protect it’s technology in the Maritime field from outside copying and unlawful use: http://www.globaltimes.cn/content/1049387.shtml

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A lesson in Chinese mannerism and management for those who intend to do business in China: http://splash247.com/charisma-competence-foie-gras-leadership-china/

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No one gives a shit, fuck China.

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Some don’t “give a shit”, to their peril.

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I believe our “Tweeter” of a President does, in fact, give a shit. Which is one of the reasons he got elected.

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I believe you are right; he really “give a shit” about China, or at least he did until he met Mr. Xi at Mar a Largo. Now he claims to be best friend of China, as long as they help against North Korea.
Better still, if they do his bidding and stop exporting too much stuff to USA,

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Well, yeah? I call that a good days work - again, one of the reasons the man got elected. He also got us out of the Paris Accords, which gave China a DISTINCT advantage over the US while doing absolutely nothing except granting China the OK to increase carbon emissions. He is also working on eradicating trade agreements with China that give them an unfair advantage over…the world. I call all of that a good days work!

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Your link is about Management and communication in Chinese business culture. How many active memebers of this forum of merchant mariners do you believe will be wheeling and dealing with Chinese businessman? So yeah I don’t give a fuck about that and I’m not worried about the peril as a result.

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His exit from the Paris accord has spawned a new word in the English language; Trumpxite.
China is actually doing a lot to clean up their act, mainly to clean their air and water, but also to reduce their climate gas emission. Hopefully US will continue to do so to, despite whatever Mr. Trump may want.

Sorry to bring up unpleasant facts again, it’s not popular, I know:
Americans emit more climate gas per person than China and India combined, Only beaten by Canada, due to their tar sand oil extraction: https://wri.org/blog/2014/11/6-graphs-explain-world’s-top-10-emitters
BTW; USA is also the biggest cumulative emitter between 1990 -2011.

As to trade between China and America, it is per WTO Rules. There is no Trade Agreement and China is not party to TPP, which Mr. Trump departed without understanding it’s merits to USA. The other partners are going ahead anyhow, without USA.

Unless you are referring to the limited Trade agreement signed by Mr. Trump in March, which gave China a huge advantage: https://www.brookings.edu/blog/order-from-chaos/2017/05/15/the-u-s-china-trade-agreement-a-huge-deal-for-china/

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Norwegians emit more self righteous bloviating gas per person than anyone else on earth.

Here’s what I want. How bout you go to the top floor of the tallest building in Norway. Then I want you to throw yourself down every flight of stairs in that building. While you’re doing that get one of those Norwegian Sakte TV crews to film the whole thing. Have them post a link to the footage in the “Enough with the Norwegian shit” thread when you’re done. Preesh yate ya.

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Please stop skipping around the field picking the prettiest facts from the information sources geared to your particular mind set. Here is another picture directly from our EPA:https://www.epa.gov/ghgemissions/global-greenhouse-gas-emissions-data. This one even has the advantage of data from the last five years! What a concept. And the Paris Accords (not Paris Treaty, since it was basically an agreement by the Obama Administration (which was not ratified by our legislative branch and considerably watered down to a document that provided no viable environmental benefits) which would have, with out congressional consent, committed 3 trillion USD over something like 10 years and 3 billion initially (about 30% of the original funding) to a United Nations Slush fund while allowing China, India, and some European countries to increase carbon immersions while giving the UN power over the US for penalties on what we did with in our boarders (even though we, as a nation, were not bound by that accord, but Obama’s administration was). Why would anyone, much less Trump, agree to stay in to such an agreement? I’m sure you guys in Europe are ALLLLLl upset about it as it is one more bill we don’t agree to pay for. As for trade agreements with China and Trump, weren’t you initially blasting Trump for wanting to bend China to his will?

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I don’t know if you are aware, but China has 1.3 Bn. people, while USA has 320 Mill.
China emit 30% of world total, while USA emits 15%, or half that of China, but with a quarter of the population. That make each American emit twice as much as each Chinese.
For India, the difference is MUCH larger.

The rest of your statement is all drivel, taken directly from Mr. Trumps speech as he withdrew from the Paris Accord. But you are right, all European and all other countries were not so much upset as dumbfounded by that action. How can anybody understand such an action against the best interest of the US and the world??

On the trade agreement with China; yes I agree that I and most of the world were amazed when he was proposing to put a 45% tariff on all imports from China, which could only hurt American consumers and ultimately American economy. Tariffs are paid at the receiving end, not by the exporter.

Where were all the cheap stuff you crave going to come from, if not from China and other low cost countries? Do you seriously think that American manufacturers would be able to produce that stuff in the US at competitive prices, even with a 45% markup on imported things?

In time they MAY be able to automate the factories to where there were little need for labour, thus becoming competitive in a protected market. (Maybe by importing robots from Japan, Korea and yes, China)

In reality China was the winner on the Trade Agreement signed by Mr. Trump in March. (So much for the master negotiator)

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And you are repeating most of the drivel from the other side of the coin. I still don’t believe those accords were in the best interest of ANYBODY, except for the coffers of the UN but oh, well. When you actually READ the accords, as I did when Obama first signed it, I gotta say I was absolutely dumbfounded that administration got us in to such a stupid agreement - until I found out that it was basically unconstitutional, certainly not well thought out by Obama, and committed us to ridiculous amounts of money for no gain to the environment. We have already, for years, initiated policy on state and local levels that DON’T cost the taxpayers anywhere near that and achieve much better results (but, of course, since you basically have only a shallow understanding of the rest of the world, you wouldn’t know anything about that). We’ll take care of our emissions, you guys take care of yours, and in the mean time they still can’t see across two miles of Beijing skyline because of the smog and it’s just going to get worse over there (and, apparently, as per the Paris Accords, so is Europe!). As for the rest of your blathering: All you know about the US, clearly, is what you haven’t selectively blocked out, while gleefully clapping your hands at our assumed demise while toasting yourself on your brilliance. Your point of views are completely with out merit and you have absolutely no idea what you are talking about. Again, enjoy the suicide rates and peace out.

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I give up. Who can argue with such brilliant perception of reality and interpretation of the facts.
Didn’t you learn anything during your time of travelling the world as you said?
I believe we have been to some of the same places, but that what you see and what I see is two VERY different things.

I enjoy a good argument, but this is beyond belief. I bow out to your dogged defense of the indefensible and conviction that whatever is said and done in the name of America MUST be right and just.

PS> Washington Post and many other fact checked his P.A. speech that you used as base for your arguments. Here is their findings: https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/powerpost/paloma/the-energy-202/2017/06/02/the-energy-202-trump-s-paris-speech-needs-a-serious-fact-check/59302a21e9b69b2fb981dc14/

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Listen, we have allowed ourselves to get rather nasty arguing about things were BOTH sides have merit. But here’s the deal - you are not going to change my mind, and I am not going to change yours. The way you are approaching these issues, your tactics and tone, may be cultural. I don’t know. But if you are speaking on issues that affect my country, you may want to try a different angle if you want me and my countrymen to listen and actually HEAR.

You are clearly a very intelligent man, with a lot of experience. But all of these things that you are speaking on - the US Jones act, our president, our China relations, our government, our industrial status, everything, are not black and white issues. No one is entirely wrong, no one is entirely right. My country is in the midst of a great change, a much needed one, and it’s good for us one way or another. It is going to be a painful process, however, and if you don’t think we are paying attention to the matters at hand in our own country, you have greatly underestimated us. If you are baffled by how this last election when the way it did? That’s because, like the left leaning community of this country, you don’t get it (and, God help me, they STILL don’t get it - they continue to think that half of the US are complete idiots. I promise you, it’s this attitude that you are buying in to, that is going to get that man reelected. STOP!)

Our faith in what we are hearing in the main stream media is shattered, and if you continue to use sources from people like the Washington Post, CNN, the New York Times, even Fox News, (all of whom have repeatedly shown themselves to be unreliable at worst, biased at the least) you are going to find the walls going up that you can certainly continue to bash your head against, but it won’t go far in to what ever agenda (I’m guessing you want to “inform” all of us, teach all of us, etc.). You aren’t going to win an argument. You are going to get bashed. You are facilitating, probably with the best of intentions, a degradation of any sort of calm discourse on this site. Take a different tack. No one responds to being spoken to like a naughty child, particularly an entire nationality. You don’t know us, you don’t know the rank and file people on this side of the pond. You only know, for what ever reasons, what you read in the periodicals and lets face it, that ain’t enough. So back off of this particular tendency to bash this country. There’s plenty of other subjects that I’m sure would be infinitely more welcome and certainly better received for you to post.

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The “nasty” arguments started when you assumed that I had to be some know-nothing idiot who may not even have sailed, or at best had been working in some shore based position. I appreciate that you have taken your time to find out differently.

Yes I agree, you will not be able to convert me to a true believer in American exceptionalism, nor am I likely to be able to convince you that there can be something worthwhile coming from outside the US.
I don’t think we will ever see eye to eye on American politics, especially the present brand of it, so let’s let that rest.

That US is “in the midst of a great change” which, as you say, is much needed, we can agree on.
The difference is that I don’t think going backwards is the right choice, which is what appears to be happening. You may think so, as is your right.

You do not know how and from where I get my information of American and world affairs, but I can assure you that it is not one sided. I’m a self-confessed news addict, who like to check news from different sources to ensure I know the facts and the different opinions.
I accept that American media are mostly biased, one way or another, but in foreign affairs, nearly ALWAYS biased in favour of the official American position. (Fox News exempted)
Or at least it used to be the case, until recently.

As to my “agenda”; on the political side I don’t have one, except to present facts when someone make statements that is not correct, or to arrest hypocrisy. Otherwise I do post items of Maritime interest I find from various sources, that may not be commonly available to people on this forum, or article that is, but fits into ongoing discussions.

I have no problem admitting that I don’t know everything about anything, incl. US Maritime affairs, but I do have some knowledge about things outside USA that MAY be of interest to somebody on this forum.

I have no intention of bashing any country or person, but when somebody with little or no knowledge of other countries make bastant statement without merits, I do feel it necessary to point out the felony and present the facts. No apologies for that.

If my style of writing upset tender souls I can only apologise. If somebody take offence, I can only say that no offence is intended, except as reply to direct attack on my person.

We are way outside anything to do with the title of this thread, so I’ll call it quits.

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Oh I forgot to answer this one. There probably isn’t too many forum members who are dealing with China and Chinese on a regular bases, but there may be some up and coming young people who could benefit from whatever knowledge they get, since China is the up and coming maritime power that they are likely to be dealing with in their career in some manner or another.

I have seen the result, (or lack there off) when Europeans and American come to China with an inflated opinion of their own superiority over the “undereducated” locals. It never turns out very good, no matter what they tell the folks back home.

I have also worked with Americans that had mastered the art of attending Chinese dinner parties and Mai Tai sessions with great aplomb, which is no small feat. I remember especially an American boss of an international Oil Company that I attended several such occasions with at a high level, who was a master of guanxi. He had lived in China for over 10 years and had no plans of leaving. (I actually learnt a lot from him)

BTW; There are more and more both Europeans and Americans who learn the language and make China their home, Every Chinese town I have been to appears to have a colony of expats, with their own Bars and Restaurants that they frequent. (Some are also owned and run by foreigners)
Here are some of them: https://usatoday30.usatoday.com/news/world/2011-07-12-Americans-China-dreams-transplants_n.htm

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Whelp, alrighty then! You really are just an old gas bag. So much for that experiment. Good luck to you.

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Interesting idea, but I think that would be the shortest “Sakte TV” transmission ever. The tallest building here in Aalesund has only 11 floors.