Hong Kong in trouble

No doubt that there are problems in Hong Kong, but does it help that outsiders try to interfere and meddle in HK’s and China’s affairs?

So far China has been a lot more restrained than I would have thought possible, but that cannot last forever. If there is anything China don’t need it is internal problems- (Yes HK IS a part of China):

Neil Bush has some point worth listening to:

China don’t appear to take Trump’s verbal abuse and treats too seriously:

China takes NO threats seriously.

They have been around for 4,000 years in one capacity or another and consider their people fungible. They will subtlety dig at Hong Kong until it becomes what they want it to be as they will with Taiwan. People do not matter. Mao killed approximately 50,000,000 when he assumed power and Hitler is considered the anti-christ by most, not Mao though both along with Stalin (40,000,000 murdered) are socialists which is why I am not a huge fan of socialist governments in most cases.

The Eastern Asian idea of time and materials is completely different from the West. Witness Vietnam…


Mao, Stalin and Hitler all ran authoritarian governments that killed a great many of it’s citizens. I believe that the reason that Hitler is considered to be the epitome of evil is that it was Nazi policy to kill it citizens. Stalin and Mao may not have cared how many citizens died but killing them was not explicitly government policy.

EDIT: Don’ t know much about it but I do recall some on the American left and communist minimized the failings of Mao and Stalin, motivated reasoning most likely. Same is true for the Nazis and the American right, famously Henry Ford. .

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Hitler, Stalin and Mao were products of their time, which was different from today’s reality.

It is said that “those who don’t know history is bound to repeat the mistakes of times past”. The Chinese DO know history and are always talking about their 5000 years of recorded history.
They.remember the humiliations of the 19th and early 20th Centuries as if it was yesterday. NEVER TO BE REPEATED.

Like Americans don’t like anybody interfering in their internal affairs (or electitions) the Chinese don’t like outsiders meddling in theirs. They are as nationalistic and patriotic as anybody.

Hong Kong was/is a reminder of the humiliation of earlier days and the last such reminder to be eradicated.

Likewise, most Chinese look at Hongkeys as rich spoiled brats that did not suffer the hunger of the “Great Leap Forward”, or the chaos of the “Cultural Revolution”.

The Hongkeys in turn look down on the mainlanders as uncultured and pushy people with no manners.

It is going to take some time to get them to accept each others as equals and fellow Chinese. Besides, the Hongkeys doesn’t even speak proper Mandarin, but insist on using Cantonese dialect as their “official language” (English is widely used in business and administration)

What about Vietnam?? True, they did not become French, despite six decades of French colonisation, or American despite presence for two decades. (From 1954 - 1975, at least in the South):

Do you have a link that shows this?

What’s the connections to avoiding authoritarian government? Looks like the opposite is the case. Accept a strong government to protect you.

We’ve come now to think of this idea of a “national humiliation” as a narrative owned by the Communist Party, but we’d do well to remember that it was felt keenly by pretty much any intellectual of the modern era who cared a fig for the fate of his or her nation.

So it’s basically communist propaganda? It looks like it how China doesn’t want to be humiliated by foreign powers, which countries do?

I was always very comfortable in HongKong and I have only spent 4 weeks in China and was always conscious that I was tolerated and nothing more. I can not see how HongKong will function as a financial centre under Chinese control.

I think you Americans put too much in this “Communist” thing. The Chinese are not that occupied with the communist idea any more. (Their system is pretty much Capitalistic, not Communistic)

It is a one party system and that party is still called the Communist Party, but they are first and foremost Chinese nationalist and patriots. Never shall China be humiliated again, by anybody.

Are they interested in taking over the American mantel as “world leader”? No way, that required too much resources that can be put to much better use, building influence in the world, rather than wasting it on military might. (Defence of the motherland, yes. Attacking force no)

There are scholars in the US that understand this, but they are being overruled by ideologs that is dead scared of loosing influence in the world.

I don’t think many people in the U.S. are still in the red scare mode, that’s been a while. And certainly at this point nobody is expecting the state to wither away.

I’ve discharged enough Maserati sports cars in Chinese ports to catch on to the whole capitalistic thing.

I should have said government propaganda.

This quote is from the link you posted

We’ve come now to think of this idea of a “national humiliation” as a narrative owned by the Communist Party,

This is straight out of the authoritarian playbook, give the people something to fear.

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I was intimating that the Vietnamese had been fighting for independence for many, many years.

It only took them 21 to wait us out and start the destruction of our republic by US citizens outing the government’s dirty little secrets.

Now we are in the “whiny citizen, we want the government to take care of us cradle to grave phase.”

The country’s rulers do not just suppress history, they recreate it to serve the present. They know that, in a communist state, change often starts when the past is challenged


I’m surprised. I though you had been on US flag car carriers. Don’t they carry mainly US export goods, US Gov.cargo and military equipment around the world? (Are Maseratis now being assemble by Fiat Chrysler plants in the US?)

Yes propaganda is something China and all other major powers are good at. US spend a lot of money on propaganda and has done so for a lot more years than P.R.China.

Good Propaganda should have a grain of truth in it, but emphasize what is advantageous and suppress what is bad for the country, government, regime, administration, or political party that produce it.

Nobody believe that the Chinese Government are not doing thing to benefit China and the Communist Party. Governments everywhere does that and is expected by the people in the countries to do so.

What is the case with HK is that it is a part of China (as is Tibet, which has also been the object of foreign meddling)

China has shown unbelievable restrain when it comes to the violent demonstrations last year. I don’t think many other countries would put up with wanton destruction in the name of “freedom” and “democracy” by a minority of people in one of their cities for as long as China has in HK. (??)

PS> HK has had more “freedom” and “democracy” under Chinese rule since 1997 than they had under British colonial rule.

There are many that is less than impressed with the hypocritical approach to Hong Kong rioters that is shown, not only by POTUS b ut by many in the US Senate, Congress and large parts the the media:

OK, so this is opinions, not factual reporting, but yet…

So long as the USA aligns itself with Saudi Arabia and other nations with no respect for “human rights” it is silly for the USA to complain about China as it is nothing but hypocrisy. China and most other nations know this so they blow off the noise from Washington DC.

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Mao’s children are now the lost generation in china who make up all the old people who are the ccp.
Thats the scary part, no education, no morals, we can do what we like and must to ensure we stay in power attitude.
Illegal drugs banned in China but legal to manufacture to sell overseas…money money money.

not sure I understand that, there is the CCP and its in charge and everyone else is subordinate

The problem as I see it is China reneging on the agreement made when HongKong was returned. The riots didn’t start until China started chipping away at the elections of HongKong local government then they brought in the extradition law. HongKong and Singapore owe a lot of their position as financial and shipping centres because their commercial law followed British Law. I understand there are 85,000 expat US citizens living and working in HongKong. I don’t know how many Kiwis but there is quite a few plus people from all over.
And yes I know there is a lot of expats living in Shanghai even a few Kiwis at an English language school in Wuhan but the headquarters of firms dealing with China stay out of China and if HongKong reverts completely to Chinese law they will be out of there leaving a branch office.

The young locals had ( and still do) lots of grievances under the British, yes was a good place for an expat but not so much for a local that wasnt rich.
The very rich in HK made the rules, clearly China would struggle to accept that nor should they.
Hence many things were agreed to be tabled to be discussed by the new HK gov mainly aimed at making HK a fairer society yet absolutely nothing was done since 97, some things talked about but nothing resolved so it it just takes a trigger and years of built up grievances came out.
The young dont believe they have a future to improve their lot which is pretty much the truth.
They are forced to live in the same tiny expensive apartments as 50+years ago as guess who still pulls the strings of power.
The gov has had the list of grievances for years…
Singapore Gov mentioned that was a difference between them and HK so the locals can live well. The average Singaporean job for job, lives in a mansion compared to their HK colleagues.
Mainly due that the Singapore gov ensures an easy buy in to gov housing whose pricing is controlled by them. Land is auctioned for private development but most for gov development.

the best part below…

Hong Kong developers are effectively a cartel run by five families who now count themselves the richest in the former colony.[3] The developers share similar cost structures and advantages, and settle competition at land auctions by collusive bidding.[4] Similarly, in residential sales, project metrics are equally predictable because the small circle of architects and banks means secrets are difficult to keep for long. They refrain from official price-cutting, although they may offer discounts, cash rebates or other inducements to the buying public. The orderly competition lowers operating risk and ensures lucrative returns.[4]