Well it looks like things are looking up in the Gulf.
Guys,
I am a former mariner who now works shore based for a GOM vessel operator and have the benefit of seeing both sides of the fence. Lots have been discussed about day rates, equipment, training, etc… and I would like to share my opinion on the subject. You guys working for the bigger operators make a very good salary even if you guys don’t get raises soon. What other field can take a guy with no college education (or graduating high school for that matter) and turn it into a $150,000 plus/year paycheck? I can’t think of one field where this happens regularly other than the vessel world. I can tell you that the average guys in the office make nowhere near as much as you guys do and have twice the bull to deal with and that’s a fact. You (as did I when offshore) Mariners get paid to be away from home more than for your knowledge or work ethic. When you guys get off the vessel you have no phone calls to worry about, emails, etc… you’re off and free from your job until it’s time to return.
Some of you need to realize that you can’t have everything. Sure, Chouest may not be paying top notch but there equipment is second to none and THEY GIVE YOU ALL YOUR TRAINING FOR FREE!!! Do you have any idea how much money they shell out anually to train YOU for FREE and then get the same person bitching that they want a raise because they got a new certificate? So you want them to train you for free and then pay you top notch? Why don’t you pay for the training yourself and then you are in a position to ask for more money, you can’t have your cake and eat it too. Many companies may be making better money now but the last few years has been terribly tough on companies who have built boats to try and keep up with others and keep their mariners happy.
GOL and Harvey Gulf may be paying more but there equipment isn’t as nice, they only have a handful of boats, they don’t give you all training for free and they don’t have the same opportunities (and no I don’t work for Chouest). All I am saying is that some of you guys need to step back and realize how good you really have it before constantly complaining that you’re not making enough. My company tried paying more wages with state of the art equipment and we didn’t get any better results or quality guys in the big scheme of things. Do you realize that an A/B making $360/day working 28/14 is roughly $87,000!!! This is for a guy whose main responsibilites include painting, cleaning and deck work. That’s more than your average Safety, personnel or operations guy makes on a yearly basis with more experience and a college degree.
I know I will get lots of negative feedback from this but some guys will be asking for more money even if they got to $900/day. They will be complaining about profits being made, etc… If you want to make these big profits go start your own boat company, I promise you it is easier said than done. Somewhere somebody put all of their chips on the line and either got rewarded or failed miserably. I say the guys who succeeded should be able to pay themselves whatever they want because they have all the risk, not the office staff or offshore staff.
[QUOTE=Saltine;58277]Guys,
I am a former mariner who now works shore based for a GOM vessel operator and have the benefit of seeing both sides of the fence. Lots have been discussed about day rates, equipment, training, etc… and I would like to share my opinion on the subject. You guys working for the bigger operators make a very good salary even if you guys don’t get raises soon. What other field can take a guy with no college education (or graduating high school for that matter) and turn it into a $150,000 plus/year paycheck? I can’t think of one field where this happens regularly other than the vessel world. I can tell you that the average guys in the office make nowhere near as much as you guys do and have twice the bull to deal with and that’s a fact. You (as did I when offshore) Mariners get paid to be away from home more than for your knowledge or work ethic. When you guys get off the vessel you have no phone calls to worry about, emails, etc… you’re off and free from your job until it’s time to return.
Some of you need to realize that you can’t have everything. Sure, Chouest may not be paying top notch but there equipment is second to none and THEY GIVE YOU ALL YOUR TRAINING FOR FREE!!! Do you have any idea how much money they shell out anually to train YOU for FREE and then get the same person bitching that they want a raise because they got a new certificate? So you want them to train you for free and then pay you top notch? Why don’t you pay for the training yourself and then you are in a position to ask for more money, you can’t have your cake and eat it too. Many companies may be making better money now but the last few years has been terribly tough on companies who have built boats to try and keep up with others and keep their mariners happy.
GOL and Harvey Gulf may be paying more but there equipment isn’t as nice, they only have a handful of boats, they don’t give you all training for free and they don’t have the same opportunities (and no I don’t work for Chouest). All I am saying is that some of you guys need to step back and realize how good you really have it before constantly complaining that you’re not making enough. My company tried paying more wages with state of the art equipment and we didn’t get any better results or quality guys in the big scheme of things. Do you realize that an A/B making $360/day working 28/14 is roughly $87,000!!! This is for a guy whose main responsibilites include painting, cleaning and deck work. That’s more than your average Safety, personnel or operations guy makes on a yearly basis with more experience and a college degree.
I know I will get lots of negative feedback from this but some guys will be asking for more money even if they got to $900/day. They will be complaining about profits being made, etc… If you want to make these big profits go start your own boat company, I promise you it is easier said than done. Somewhere somebody put all of their chips on the line and either got rewarded or failed miserably. I say the guys who succeeded should be able to pay themselves whatever they want because they have all the risk, not the office staff or offshore staff.[/QUOTE]
You have to understand a few things. Operators do not give raises because they want to. They give raises because they have to. When you have to give raises to operate, that is the free market at work (no unions). The numbers mean nothing as long as the number is right - so your vessels run per manning and turn a profit while providing a service. You have seen both sides of the fence, but there are many fences my friend. People that complain about pay didn’t hit their head one day and decide they want more money for the sake of having more money. Some have seen other opportunities, and decided to take their chances elsewhere. The ones that stay loyal are the ones that usually complain because they can leave all the same and make that known to employers. They are basically saying, “are y’all going to pay me to stay or should I leave like the last guy”? Again, free market working. Vessel operators were losing people seeking better lifestyles for their families, where true loyalty should be, and raises where simply needed.
I was at Chouest for over 15 years, worked up to unlimited master, and was Master of (2) flagships - the Dino Chouest and the Island Enforcer. I left the company for one reason - my family. I worked offshore for 20 years and graduated 20 years ago spending nearly 5,500 days offshore during that time. I left for over $200,000/year working equal time, better insurance, better 401k, but they don’t own their own school. They just pay for one, the flight, the hotel, the rental car, and then pay you extra to go. It’s not free - It’s actually profitable to get training. If I lose my left hand tomorrow at work, my employer provided insurance will pay me 80% of my current pay till I hit the grave. I believe the rest of my professional life will be better for my family. I earned it. I started at $50.00/day painting and chipping, and it was probably more that what guys in the office where making then too. $900/day for me would be working backwards, but I did not ask for any of it. That was the offer…and I’m just a Mate now.
Every time a seaman walks up a gangway, he is not only sacrificing time away from family, but he is risking losing that same family due to the nature of the work. A man cannot take any more personal risk than that. I don’t care if you have a 8th grade education or graduated from a maritime academy. You deserve what the free market dictates. There is nothing to compare it to unless it has to do with another person walking up a gangway with his seabag.
If 1/3 of operations staff walked out tomorrow to work offshore, the same thing will happen on the office side I would imagine. That’s the way the cookie crumbles. It takes people to run a business.
Most could care less what the owners make. I never did and I hope they make more and more to expand their business and create more opportunities (every owner I met was a great person, on top of businessman), but ever so often, big raises are needed for the masses because of the business model and free market. Personally, I think it would be a lot less dramatic to sell big oil companies on progressive contracts where modest 1.5-3% annual raises where incorporated - no guess work. Then, you wouldn’t lose seasoned talent and have to respond with 25-30%…that most certainly would not get back the most talented of who left - just retain the flood of who was leaving. I don’t remember one person complaining about the owners making money. That is ludicrous assumption as profit works in tandem with personal pay.
I do have a problem with “Mariners get paid to be away from home more than for your knowledge or work ethic”…that tells me if you did work offshore, you quit too soon because if that was your attitude on my ship, I most likely would have ran you off at some point. You must strive to have both of those things (knowledge and work ethic)to succeed even marginally.
Like Anchorman said! Free market is the way to go!! I guess when their is a demand for safety coordinators with a collage degree they to will be making 200k a year.
Guys I apologizes for my previous post!! I used my iPhone and for some reason my reply is inside Saltine’s quote.
Saltine Said- [I]“THEY GIVE YOU ALL YOUR TRAINING FOR FREE!!! Do you have any idea how much money they shell out anually to train YOU for FREE and then get the same person bitching that they want a raise because they got a new certificate? So you want them to train you for free and then pay you top notch? Why don’t you pay for the training yourself and then you are in a position to ask for more money.” [/I]
PR-9: I am sure you are not taking about this free school scam!!! Most of the classes mariners take are contractual requirements not ask by the mariner but by the oil companies!! Also most of the classes offered by GOM companies are paid with Federal Grants!!! So you got the money for free and then you want to claim the price for the class as if it came out of your pocket!!
Saltine Said- [I]“Do you realize that an A/B making $360/day working 28/14 is roughly $87,000!!! This is for a guy whose main responsibilites include painting, cleaning and deck work. That’s more than your average Safety, personnel or operations guy makes on a yearly basis with more experience and a college degree.”[/I]
PR-9: "Go ahead and disrespect the back bone of our industry!!! The ABs and QMEDs are very hard working people that earn every Dollar they get!! Not to mention the future of our industry!! You went to shore probably to spend more time with your family. Don’t get in this Forum and disrespect the people that are making sacrifices for their families!!!
I like to think part of that big pay check Im getting is because I’ve spent close to 5 month of my life in a class room to just get a 500 ton oceans ticket with just DP intro. Majority of this done on my free time and out of my pocket, and all of it done off the clock so to speak.
I don’t know the last time somebody in the office spent that much time in a classroom since college, IF they went. Not my fault you guys chose the low paying, high stress, never ending BS job.
And yea I fell I’m underpaid till I’m making at least a grand a day and believe me it’s coming in the next 5 years and probably sooner!
[QUOTE=anchorman;58286]You have to understand a few things. Operators do not give raises because they want to. They give raises because they have to. When you have to give raises to operate, that is the free market at work (no unions). The numbers mean nothing as long as the number is right - so your vessels run per manning and turn a profit while providing a service. You have seen both sides of the fence, but there are many fences my friend. People that complain about pay didn’t hit their head one day and decide they want more money for the sake of having more money. Some have seen other opportunities, and decided to take their chances elsewhere. The ones that stay loyal are the ones that usually complain because they can leave all the same and make that known to employers. They are basically saying, “are y’all going to pay me to stay or should I leave like the last guy”? Again, free market working. Vessel operators were losing people seeking better lifestyles for their families, where true loyalty should be, and raises where simply needed.
I was at Chouest for over 15 years, worked up to unlimited master, and was Master of (2) flagships - the Dino Chouest and the Island Enforcer. I left the company for one reason - my family. I worked offshore for 20 years and graduated 20 years ago spending nearly 5,500 days offshore during that time. I left for over $200,000/year working equal time, better insurance, better 401k, but they don’t own their own school. They just pay for one, the flight, the hotel, the rental car, and then pay you extra to go. It’s not free - It’s actually profitable to get training. If I lose my left hand tomorrow at work, my employer provided insurance will pay me 80% of my current pay till I hit the grave. I believe the rest of my professional life will be better for my family. I earned it. I started at $50.00/day painting and chipping, and it was probably more that what guys in the office where making then too. $900/day for me would be working backwards, but I did not ask for any of it. That was the offer…and I’m just a Mate now.
Every time a seaman walks up a gangway, he is not only sacrificing time away from family, but he is risking losing that same family due to the nature of the work. A man cannot take any more personal risk than that. I don’t care if you have a 8th grade education or graduated from a maritime academy. You deserve what the free market dictates. There is nothing to compare it to unless it has to do with another person walking up a gangway with his seabag.
If 1/3 of operations staff walked out tomorrow to work offshore, the same thing will happen on the office side I would imagine. That’s the way the cookie crumbles. It takes people to run a business.
Most could care less what the owners make. I never did and I hope they make more and more to expand their business and create more opportunities (every owner I met was a great person, on top of businessman), but ever so often, big raises are needed for the masses because of the business model and free market. Personally, I think it would be a lot less dramatic to sell big oil companies on progressive contracts where modest 1.5-3% annual raises where incorporated - no guess work. Then, you wouldn’t lose seasoned talent and have to respond with 25-30%…that most certainly would not get back the most talented of who left - just retain the flood of who was leaving. I don’t remember one person complaining about the owners making money. That is ludicrous assumption as profit works in tandem with personal pay.
I do have a problem with “Mariners get paid to be away from home more than for your knowledge or work ethic”…that tells me if you did work offshore, you quit too soon because if that was your attitude on my ship, I most likely would have ran you off at some point. You must strive to have both of those things (knowledge and work ethic)to succeed even marginally.[/QUOTE]
Thanks Anchorman, I was going to respond with something like this, but decided to let cooler heads prevail. Call me if you get a chance.
Word is out that Harvey Gulf has given the officers a raise, not sure how much though.
In response to all this discussion about pay raises, no one has mentioned travel pay. With airline tickets consistently increasing in price, our travel pay has remained the same ($350) since before I was even hired. This meager amount,which is taxed after I pay the taxes on my airfare begin with, is fairly insignificant when compared to that which I fork out to get back and forth to the vessel. Oddly enough, I work for a company which also conveniently operates its own travel agency! Tickets are provided in Lieu of travel pay only for those seafarers employed in the government operations division (who might I add make a lesser day rate than those in the gulf, and include those who were recently attacked by pirates. Hmmmmm But I digress).
What are other gulf companies paying for travel? Are your airline reservations booked for you? Clearly these vessels can’t operate with only the south Louisiana work force. Who wants fully paid travel? I for one am tired of paying change fees when chevron decides not to fly our crew in because the company man doesn’t prefer a few hard working travel companions on his direct flight from walker ridge to MSY!
[QUOTE=anchorman;58286]You have to understand a few things. Operators do not give raises because they want to. They give raises because they have to. When you have to give raises to operate, that is the free market at work (no unions). The numbers mean nothing as long as the number is right - so your vessels run per manning and turn a profit while providing a service. You have seen both sides of the fence, but there are many fences my friend. People that complain about pay didn’t hit their head one day and decide they want more money for the sake of having more money. Some have seen other opportunities, and decided to take their chances elsewhere. The ones that stay loyal are the ones that usually complain because they can leave all the same and make that known to employers. They are basically saying, “are y’all going to pay me to stay or should I leave like the last guy”? Again, free market working. Vessel operators were losing people seeking better lifestyles for their families, where true loyalty should be, and raises where simply needed.
I was at Chouest for over 15 years, worked up to unlimited master, and was Master of (2) flagships - the Dino Chouest and the Island Enforcer. I left the company for one reason - my family. I worked offshore for 20 years and graduated 20 years ago spending nearly 5,500 days offshore during that time. I left for over $200,000/year working equal time, better insurance, better 401k, but they don’t own their own school. They just pay for one, the flight, the hotel, the rental car, and then pay you extra to go. It’s not free - It’s actually profitable to get training. If I lose my left hand tomorrow at work, my employer provided insurance will pay me 80% of my current pay till I hit the grave. I believe the rest of my professional life will be better for my family. I earned it. I started at $50.00/day painting and chipping, and it was probably more that what guys in the office where making then too. $900/day for me would be working backwards, but I did not ask for any of it. That was the offer…and I’m just a Mate now.
Every time a seaman walks up a gangway, he is not only sacrificing time away from family, but he is risking losing that same family due to the nature of the work. A man cannot take any more personal risk than that. I don’t care if you have a 8th grade education or graduated from a maritime academy. You deserve what the free market dictates. There is nothing to compare it to unless it has to do with another person walking up a gangway with his seabag.
If 1/3 of operations staff walked out tomorrow to work offshore, the same thing will happen on the office side I would imagine. That’s the way the cookie crumbles. It takes people to run a business.
Most could care less what the owners make. I never did and I hope they make more and more to expand their business and create more opportunities (every owner I met was a great person, on top of businessman), but ever so often, big raises are needed for the masses because of the business model and free market. Personally, I think it would be a lot less dramatic to sell big oil companies on progressive contracts where modest 1.5-3% annual raises where incorporated - no guess work. Then, you wouldn’t lose seasoned talent and have to respond with 25-30%…that most certainly would not get back the most talented of who left - just retain the flood of who was leaving. I don’t remember one person complaining about the owners making money. That is ludicrous assumption as profit works in tandem with personal pay.
I do have a problem with “Mariners get paid to be away from home more than for your knowledge or work ethic”…that tells me if you did work offshore, you quit too soon because if that was your attitude on my ship, I most likely would have ran you off at some point. You must strive to have both of those things (knowledge and work ethic)to succeed even marginally.[/QUOTE]
I agree with lots of things you said and disagree with several things but I do respect your opinion. My statement “Mariners get paid to be away from home more than for your knowledge or work ethic” should have been worded different in hindsight. It takes knowledge and work ethic but if you mirror that in regards to a land based position the pay would be nowhere near what it is offshore. That is what I meant by being away from home aka at sea.
In regards to another users post about the “grants” that are “given” to companies, there should be a notation. Companies aren’t just “given” free money to send their guys to schooling at will. You have to put a package together to present your case as to why you should receive money. If your application isn’t compelling enough or you didn’t prove why you deserve the money you don’t get it. And the amount you are given is not always proportional to the size company you work at. I promise you, it costs Chouest quite a bit of money (after grant money) to have their own facility on sight and costs that go along with training. And honestly, some of the training given is a joke. In my opinion, more money should be spent training mariners on basic seamanship that a lot of the industry doesn’t know like the old guys do.
I don’t think that there is a shortage of mariners but there is a shortage of good mariners. Over my years on the shore side it’s unbelievable the things that the average mariner just doesn’t know even with 20 years of being offshore. The average mariner doesn’t know basic chart plotting, use of CFR’s, Coast Pilot, items checked at topside inspection, etc… I have had to teach more guys getting paid $450 and up how to use a paper chart properly and argue why it is necessary. And when you are relying solely on a GPS what the rammifications can be if all power is lost. I have to show them that they are doing things that their COI strictly prohibits on a boat he has been on for 10+ years. I guess this is where most of my anger comes from because these are the same guys wanting top dollar and complaining about what every other company is paying their guys and them wanting the same. I think guys that want top dollar should produce results top notch and should be top notch mariners. The same thought process should be applied to the land based side of things.
Maybe my opinion is biased but in my dealings lots of guys are overpaid versus what they know and what they produce. I have used foreign officers when our vessels work overseas and the amount of schooling they go thru and knowledge level is heads and heels over the average US mariner. Again, I am talking about the “average” mariner not the upper 20-30%. I didn’t mean to offend anyone here but my opinion is based on my dealings over the last 20+ years in the industry.
[QUOTE=Saltine;58340]I agree with lots of things you said and disagree with several things but I do respect your opinion. My statement “Mariners get paid to be away from home more than for your knowledge or work ethic” should have been worded different in hindsight. It takes knowledge and work ethic but if you mirror that in regards to a land based position the pay would be nowhere near what it is offshore. That is what I meant by being away from home aka at sea.
In regards to another users post about the “grants” that are “given” to companies, there should be a notation. Companies aren’t just “given” free money to send their guys to schooling at will. You have to put a package together to present your case as to why you should receive money. If your application isn’t compelling enough or you didn’t prove why you deserve the money you don’t get it. And the amount you are given is not always proportional to the size company you work at. I promise you, it costs Chouest quite a bit of money (after grant money) to have their own facility on sight and costs that go along with training. And honestly, some of the training given is a joke. In my opinion, more money should be spent training mariners on basic seamanship that a lot of the industry doesn’t know like the old guys do.
I don’t think that there is a shortage of mariners but there is a shortage of good mariners. Over my years on the shore side it’s unbelievable the things that the average mariner just doesn’t know even with 20 years of being offshore. The average mariner doesn’t know basic chart plotting, use of CFR’s, Coast Pilot, items checked at topside inspection, etc… I have had to teach more guys getting paid $450 and up how to use a paper chart properly and argue why it is necessary. And when you are relying solely on a GPS what the rammifications can be if all power is lost. I have to show them that they are doing things that their COI strictly prohibits on a boat he has been on for 10+ years. I guess this is where most of my anger comes from because these are the same guys wanting top dollar and complaining about what every other company is paying their guys and them wanting the same. I think guys that want top dollar should produce results top notch and should be top notch mariners. The same thought process should be applied to the land based side of things.
Maybe my opinion is biased but in my dealings lots of guys are overpaid versus what they know and what they produce. I have used foreign officers when our vessels work overseas and the amount of schooling they go thru and knowledge level is heads and heels over the average US mariner. Again, I am talking about the “average” mariner not the upper 20-30%. I didn’t mean to offend anyone here but my opinion is based on my dealings over the last 20+ years in the industry.[/QUOTE]
I do know what you mean. My assumption is the top 20-30% can be found here on gCaptain as this community is engaged with the various issues. I have done audits on vessels where Captains where not engaged to the extent needed - could care less basically. I’ve seen that for myself, but that is an issue for HR and operations, not the top 20-30% of mariners that manage their business and profession appropriately. I do agree about the average foreign officer, particularly from the European sector, but getting into why that is… would be another issue all together, outside the scope of the US individual mariner, as it deals with regulations to culture to owner acceptance. Most people, mariners included, are generally a product of their environment (somebody is letting mediocre be mediocre and remain employed). If the pay and benefits are enough, you could get the top 5% if you wanted. Just depends on what you want as an operator and how that is sold to the oil companies. It’s almost a selling point to have top notch personnel.
We can do tit for tat all day long but in the end the boats make the money for the company. Vessel crews are the ones sacrificing to get everyone paid. I know that all crews are not created equal but that goes back to HR and management. How. Well does your coordinator and or manager know your crew, read evaluations, spend the time to do company audits and see who is really doing their job? A lot of things to consider when u think about it. Bottom line is when the office people get off they are home. We all picked our position, now we have to own up to it. Yes us boat people are bitching!! I can leave who I work for ( where I am master) become a DPO and make 200 dollars a day more. That increase itself besides the responsibility that I will not have any more means even time for my family. I get tired of hearing my kids ask why I am always gone. it’s the nature of the job but why are the boat so different from the rigs? The rigs pay more an you are forced even time because they know the safety issues that result from being away from home too much. Many people cannot handle being gone away from home this long. Anyway I am rambling now.
Seasoned guys are not getting the respect they deserve and the new guys coming don’t know squat. Let’s start with giving the people that have worked their butt off a raise, new boat or a little Ada boy every once in a while. Job performance on your level position and pay instead of giving your friends the positions that they do not deserve.
Saltine. You sound like all office people. I just hope you can tote that big stick you are carrying around or make a difference with it. No offense! You may be a unicorn of office personnel.
[QUOTE=Saltine;58340] And honestly, some of the training given is a joke. In my opinion, more money should be spent training mariners on basic seamanship that a lot of the industry doesn’t know like the old guys do…[/QUOTE]
You dont get this kind of learning out of a book.
Did anyone get a raise ?
Chouest raises went into effect Dec 1st. Otto Candies raises already happened. Many people got raises lately.
Great discussion here, although as usual this thread is gulf-centric. Has anyone heard any good news for those of us who work on the other two coasts? My assumption is that as wages and hiring increase in the GoM, more mariners will go down there looking for work, which will open up the job market on the West and East coasts (specifically on tugs), and eventually raise our wages as well. Any thoughts?
[QUOTE=captfish;58720] My assumption is that as wages and hiring increase in the GoM, more mariners will go down there looking for work, which will open up the job market on the West and East coasts (specifically on tugs), and eventually raise our wages as well. Any thoughts?[/QUOTE]
That’s the way it is…My observation has been that even the seabag parade dosen’t prompt a pay raise until the company has to pay demurrage, loss of contract or the threat of union organization.
And/Or… Lack of competent professional people applying at the prevailing wage, which IMHO drives up wages to attract.
Plus the realization that if these companies could do it, they would hire orangutans to do the job, if they could get away with it, and have a maintenance crew waiting at the dock between trips to clean up the bannana skins. The Jones Act is the ONLY thing keeping the American sailor (from all 57 states) employed!
[QUOTE=cappy208;58740]And/Or… Lack of competent professional people applying at the prevailing wage, which IMHO drives up wages to attract.[/QUOTE]
That is my inference.
I have found inferences are like frying pans. They work best either when red hot or up against the side of the head. At least that is what the wife thinks!