Ok, let's get in on...the Confederacy was DOA and those who venerate it are ninnies!

[QUOTE=Rebel_Rider1969;153654]Look at all the great works that Mr. Obama has done. Now imagine if he started 160 years ago. We would have our flying cars and everything would be free by now. But we would have to send Chuck Norris back in time as well to protect him.[/QUOTE]

Now we finally have a debate here!

To me you displaying Pres. Obama as Lincoln is doing him a great honor, but you do it to disparage him which right there alone tells me you are still fighting the Civil War and have not really come back to the USA!

I also believe you show Lee with with an AK as a symbol that HE should assasinate the president.

I take umbrage with this SIR!

Naaw that was just for fun. Becides everybody knows that Lincoln used Vampires to beat the South contrary to that slanderous movie and the only reason they won was cause we could not get the bigfoots and chupracabras to work together cause the bigfoots couldn’t speak mexican… There that settles it.

[QUOTE=Glaug-Eldare;153641]Agreed. A brutally violent and anti-American war effort made the North/South rift into a basically perpetual conflict when an impotent Confederacy would’ve come crawling back anyway, without having the excuse of having Northerners to blame for every ill. Lincoln’s white-hot contempt for anybody who didn’t submit to his violent husbandly domination, and the drooling admiration of his blood-soaked admirers has made this a conflict for eternity.[/QUOTE]

Lemme guess…Lincoln was a tyrant and everything bad that happened to the south entirely his doing?

[QUOTE=c.captain;153671]Lemme guess…Lincoln was a tyrant and everything bad that happened to the south entirely his doing?[/QUOTE]

Now your getting it!

[QUOTE=Rebel_Rider1969;153670]Naaw that was just for fun. Becides everybody knows that Lincoln used Vampires to beat the South contrary to that slanderous movie and the only reason they won was cause we could not get the bigfoots and chupracabras to work together cause the bigfoots couldn’t speak mexican… There that settles it.[/QUOTE]

I just love flippant replies to serious comments…so typical.

[LEFT][/LEFT][QUOTE=Rebel_Rider1969;153673]Now your getting it![/QUOTE]

You’re really quite proud to really truly be a Confederate in 2015…aren’t you?

People like you prove the Civil War never ended and is still being fought today! Trouble is that it is being fought on into eternity by the side that lost.

.

[QUOTE=c.captain;153671]Lemme guess…Lincoln was a tyrant and everything bad that happened to the south entirely his doing?[/QUOTE]

He was, but the seceded states were in for a very unpleasant reality check regardless of what Lincoln did.

[QUOTE=Glaug-Eldare;153676]He was, but the seceded states were in for a very unpleasant reality check regardless of what Lincoln did.[/QUOTE]

Was not the bombardment of Ft Sumter a declaration of war?

.

[QUOTE=c.captain;153677]Was not the bombardment of Ft Sumter not a declaration of war ?[/QUOTE]

It’s fairly tricky to define that, depending on whose sensibilities you’re trying to appease. According to Lincoln, there was no other country with which to be at war at all, and certainly none capable of an act or declaration of war against the United States. According to the United States Supreme Court, the war was initiated by Lincoln on 19 April 1861 when he ordered a blockade. According to history books, the war opened on 12 April 1861 with the capture of Fort Sumter. If you’re asking whether it was a declaration of war, are you lending weight to the Confederate government’s legitimacy and ability to declare a war among independent powers? On their part, they never declared war at all, but merely “recognized the existence of War between the United States and the Confederate States” on 6 May 1861. As far as they were concerned, the fort had become the property of South Carolina and had to be recovered from armed foreign squatters. The United States never declared or recognized a state of war at all, maintaining that the conflict was being fought to suppress an insurrection, not to subdue another state.

Don’t split hairs…the Confederacy fired first at the Federals thus consummated the shooting war!

What would you expect the Union to do after Sumter anyway? Nothing?

[QUOTE=Glaug-Eldare;153680]It’s Fort Sumter*, and it’s fairly tricky to define that, depending on whose sensibilities you’re trying to appease. According to Lincoln, there was no other country with which to be at war at all, and certainly none capable of an act or declaration of war against the United States. According to the United States Supreme Court, the war was initiated by Lincoln on 19 April 1861 when he ordered a blockade. According to history books, the war opened on 12 April 1861 with the capture of Fort Sumter. If you’re asking whether it was a declaration of war, are you lending weight to the Confederate government’s legitimacy and ability to declare a war among independent powers? On their part, they never declared war at all, but merely “recognized the existence of War between the United States and the Confederate States” on 6 May 1861. As far as they were concerned, the fort had become the property of South Carolina and had to be recovered from armed foreign squatters. The United States never declared or recognized a state of war at all, maintaining that the conflict was being fought to suppress an insurrection, not to subdue another state.[/QUOTE]

  1. So prior to the 19 April order for blocade the Southern States were in a state of Rebelion and Treason, as seccession is unconstitutional, and was never in any stretch of the immagination granted as a State’s Right.

  2. Because of the Blocade, which has historicaly been considered an act of war, the US could be considered to have legally recognized the CSA as a foreign state.

  3. Even if a State were legaly allowed to Secceed, what justification is there for them to seize Federal Property of another nation? Just because its in your land doesn’t make it yours. Like how embassy’s or ships are considered the soil of their respective nation regardless of where they are.

  4. If Sumter should immediately have reverted to South Carolina’s possesion, should Guantanamo Bay be handed over to Cuba?

Edit:
5) Anyone who either at the time, or still, supports the south’s right to secession is a traitor and should be punished accordingly.

[QUOTE=LI_Domer;153688]Edit:
5) Anyone who either at the time, or still, supports the south’s right to secession is a traitor and should be punished accordingly.[/QUOTE]

hear, HEAR!

well stated sir…

d’ya hear that all you Confederate wannabe’s?

the Union was too generous in their terms of surrender to the Confederates…all symbols of the old Confederate States should have been destroyed and forever banned after the war ended. The south should never have been able to retain them in any form nor pass any Jim Crow laws.

[QUOTE=c.captain;153686]Don’t split hairs…the Confederacy fired first at the Federals thus consummated the shooting war!

What would you expect the Union to do after Sumter anyway? Nothing?[/QUOTE]

“Declaration of war” means something different from “first shot fired,” so I decided to go into a little more detail. Yes, the use of force began in Charleston, whether you mark it from the capture of Fort Sumter or the earlier repulse of [I]Star of the West.[/I]

As for the Union, I’d [I]expect[/I] them to do exactly what they did. I’d have [I]preferred[/I] if they’d agreed to negotiate for the sale of the property months before, as South Carolina had repeatedly tried to do. Their refusal to even consider the proposal without being thrown out by force left very little hope that they’d simply demand compensation for the property.

[QUOTE=LI_Domer;153688]1) So prior to the 19 April order for blocade the Southern States were in a state of Rebelion and Treason, as seccession is unconstitutional, and was never in any stretch of the immagination granted as a State’s Right.

  1. Because of the Blocade, which has historicaly been considered an act of war, the US could be considered to have legally recognized the CSA as a foreign state.

  2. Even if a State were legaly allowed to Secceed, what justification is there for them to seize Federal Property of another nation? Just because its in your land doesn’t make it yours. Like how embassy’s or ships are considered the soil of their respective nation regardless of where they are.

  3. If Sumter should immediately have reverted to South Carolina’s possesion, should Guantanamo Bay be handed over to Cuba?

Edit:
5) Anyone who either at the time, or still, supports the south’s right to secession is a traitor and should be punished accordingly.[/QUOTE]

  1. I have the opposite perspective, and wonder how a person can commit treason against a foreign country. I reject [I]Texas v. White[/I] and the notion that men who died centuries ago are imparted with the eternal and absolute authority to dictate the future of the American people, regardless of what cruelty, violence, or injustice is inflicted on them. I don’t recognize the validity of any statute, ruling, article, or other fragment of law that places the legal rights of the dead above those of the living. On the other hand, I’m arguing a philosophy of rights with a guy who can’t spell “blockade,” “rebellion,” “imagination,” or “secede,” among other useful words.

  2. Lincoln was very particular on that point, as was the Supreme Court in [I]Texas v. White.[/I] They could not solidify their newly-invented doctrine of eternal federal ownership of the states if they admitted that any of them had failed to be Lincoln’s property for even a moment. Instead of accepting unilateral secession, they accepted unilateral suspension of the U.S. Constitution whenever it suited His Majesty Abraham I.

  3. South Carolina made many efforts to open negotiations for the purchase of Fort Sumter, months before Lincoln was inaugurated. They were ignored. I know you believe in federal ownership of the states, but for those of us who don’t, the federal government’s refusal to discuss compensation, knowing that the fort was soon going to have to be evacuated, make the means of forcing that evacuation unobjectionable. It was taken quickly, without any combat deaths on either side. The alternative was to besiege the base and starve them out, which would have been inhumane if successful, and likely to fail due to Union sea power.

  4. Yes. The lease was made in 1903 with a friendly Cuban government. Continuity of government ended during the Cuban Revolution without any agreement that the lease would continue, the United States expanded the use of the facility beyond the lawful scope of the lease, and Cuba has declined to accept payment for more than half a century. I don’t believe that might makes right, and I don’t feel that having a naval and coaling station in Cuba is necessary in 2015.

  5. Can you apply that to the traitors who betrayed the British Empire in 1776? Can you apply that to the Baltic traitors who repeatedly defied the divine authority of the Soviet Union? Can you apply that to the Arab traitors who stabbed the Ottoman Empire in the back? Can you apply that to the traitors who sought to undermine the legal authority of the Führer to govern France? If you truly believe that morality comes out the barrel of a gun, that’s pathetic.

You constantly complain about talking politics around here. Now you have started this thread which headed down that road. I can tell you that I wasn’t alive in the 1860’s nor do I give a fuck about what happened way back when. Those are my personal feelings about the civil war. I’ve heard all manner of stories growing up going back several generations about my family. In none of those stories did I hear about how we were monified plantation owners. I don’t believe there was a Cuyler family farm either. Most of the family was either coal miners or career military. So when you come around here painting with your broad brush it’s a bit of (carpetbagger term) pissah. To use
the correct parlance of the time I believe you to be a quarrelsome individual of questionable reputation. Now having said all that I will reiterate for you once again… AMERICAN BY BIRTH SOUTHERN BY THE GRACE OF GOD!

[QUOTE=Fraqrat;153699]You constantly complain about talking politics around here. Now you have started this thread which headed down that road. I can tell you that I wasn’t alive in the 1860’s nor do I give a fuck about what happened way back when. Those are my personal feelings about the civil war. I’ve heard all manner of stories growing up going back several generations about my family. In none of those stories did I hear about how we were monified plantation owners. I don’t believe there was a Cuyler family farm either. Most of the family was either coal miners or career military. So when you come around here painting with your broad brush it’s a bit of (carpetbagger term) pissah. To use
the correct parlance of the time I believe you to be a quarrelsome individual of questionable reputation. Now having said all that I will reiterate for you once again… AMERICAN BY BIRTH SOUTHERN BY THE GRACE OF GOD![/QUOTE]

//youtu.be/BpZvCjv45O4

Hear hear!! Anyone that speaks against the govt is a traitor and deserves to die a traitors death! All hail the govt and its leaders, may they rule with a benevolent iron fist!!

Christ almighty have any of you read the Constitution? First off we, as American citizens, have the right, and the duty to speak out against the govt. we also have the right to express ourselves

Secondly I dont recall seeing anything in the Constitution one way or the other about the rights of the states to secede.

Thirdly how is the Confederate flag any different from the multitude of other countries flags that people in this country have flying from their rear view mirrors or bumpers??

The area of the Texas coast I live had a few yankee occupations off and on during the war along with the blockade. Then came the end of the war and the occupation. The slaves weren’t told they were free until the cotton and cane crop were in a year later. So much for the northern concern about slavery.

oh but how I also love to poke a hornet’s nest with a pointy stick too and suddenly this thread has become one angry hornet’s nest indeed…bzzzzzz!

To use the correct parlance of the time I believe you to be a quarrelsome individual of questionable reputation.

coming from such a highly esteemed gentleman as yourself, that is a compliment sir… sabres or pistols sir?

Now having said all that I will reiterate for you once again… AMERICAN BY BIRTH SOUTHERN BY THE GRACE OF GOD!

and so you obviously consider yourself separate from the rest of the nation but do you consider southerner’s to be better than all other Americans…to be even MORE American than the rest of us unwashed boobs? Harder working, more patriotic, more God Fearing!

should you claim that you do, then you will clearly support my contention that the South vs. North lives on and so will forever. If you hold the Confederate flag to be dear then you are honoring a symbol with is divisive to the society of the USofA*!

*read the “United” States of America but not very “united” afterall, but a bunch of states paying taxes to a common Federal Government and little more.

[QUOTE=Bayrunner;153703]Thirdly how is the Confederate flag any different from the multitude of other countries flags that people in this country have flying from their rear view mirrors or bumpers??[/QUOTE]

it is not a legitimate flag…the supposed nation that flag represents was defeated roundly after almost four years of bloody war. To many not of the south it represents a time when the nation was split over an inhumane subject and a hideously cruel war ensued which tore this Nation asunder. But some here believe that flag instead of representing a terrible time of unnecessary grievous loss (which was consummated by the South I might add), see it as a symbol of some past and faded glory of a time of supposed valiant and noble sacrifices and heroic deeds done in battle. They forget that the Confederacy was formed to protect slave owners and little else.

The south believed itself to be separate from the rest of the Nation then and still does today…I blame that flag for it!

This country would be a better place if the South had won. Western civilization would be better off if the colonies had not separated from England.

[QUOTE=seriously;153715]This country would be a better place if the South had won. Western civilization would be better off if the colonies had not separated from England.[/QUOTE]

oh please elaborate…I gotta hear this one!