Not maritime but not something new to this forum...the Confederate Flag rises again!

we need something to liven things up here and I am just the man for the job. Everyone here should already be aware of my opinions on this divisive subject which appears to at last be gaining traction towards finally being expunged from our backwards Southern culture

Charleston church shooting reignites decades-old controversy over Confederate flag

Published June 23, 2015 FoxNews.com


June 22: A Confederate flag flies on the grounds of the Alabama Capitol building in Montgomery, Ala. (AP)

The Charleston church massacre has reignited an old national debate about the rebel flag and other icons of the Confederacy, which some see as symbols of their Southern heritage and others see as painful reminders of America’s darkest chapter.

South Carolina Gov. Nikki Haley called Monday for the removal of the Confederate flag from statehouse grounds but defended the right of private citizens to fly it, five days after after a white gunman opened fire on a historically black church – killing nine people in what he had hoped would trigger a “race war,” according to authorities.

“That flag, while an integral part of the past, does not represent the future of our great state,” Haley told reporters Monday.

The push to remove the Confederate flag, which is publicly displayed in cities across the South – from Richmond to Charleston – has stirred a decades-old debate between those who see it a symbol of slavery and white supremacy and those who consider it a symbol of their Southern heritage.

"The Confederate flag has a destructive, very violent cultural narrative attached to it."

- Rollins College professor Julian Chambliss

To Julian Chambliss, a professor at Rollins College in Winter Park, Fla., the flag carries only one meaning: slavery.

“The Confederate flag has an important place in the museum and will always be a part of the history books but there’s a real question about it as an emblem of contemporary society,” Chambliss told FoxNews.com Tuesday.

“It stands for repression and regression and should not be a symbol of civil society,” he said. “The Confederate flag has a destructive, very violent cultural narrative attached to it.”

Chambliss said to characterize the flag in any other way is a “misrepresentation.”

“What heritage is it about exactly? Is it about a heritage associated with supporting the slave system?” said Chambliss. “The war was about slavery.”

The Sons of Confederate Veterans, meanwhile, is staunchly opposed to the removal of the flag from South Carolina state grounds and said it plans to vigorously fight any efforts to take it down. The group said it was horrified at last week’s shooting but there is “absolutely no link” between the mass murders and the flag.

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JEBStuart.jpgExpand / Contract

The onetime Confederate capital of Richmond, Va., features several monuments to the South’s Civil War leaders, including this one depicting Gen. J.E.B. Stuart. (AP)

Alleged gunman 21-year-old Dylann Roof, who posted photos of himself with the Confederate flag in hand, reportedly yelled racist comments before opening fire on an all-black Bible Study group at the Emanuel African Methodist Episcopal Church in downtown Charleston Wednesday night. Authorities said he later confessed to the shooting, saying he intended to start a “race war.”

“It’s unfortunate that hate groups and hateful people have used our flag,” said Michael Givens, former commander-in-chief of the Sons of Confederate Veterans, which claims to have 30,000 members nationwide.

Givens told FoxNews.com he has several ancestors who fought in the Civil War and the flag is meant to salute their bravery – not to support slavery or any racist ideology.

“Many people look at it only as a symbol to honor their ancestors – to honor the the people who were willing to sacrifice everything they have to protect their families and their homes from an invasion,” said Givens.

“We’re in the middle of something that was started by this heinous, unbelievably vitriolic person who killed nine innocent people,” he said of the renewed flag controversy.

“I should have a right to display the flag without being maligned by some people who insist that I’m a racist for doing so,” he said. “You have to look at people’s intention. It’s not my intention to have anything to do with hatred.”

Confederate symbols, including the flag, are pervasive throughout the South – from Monument Avenue in Richmond, which features monuments of five Confederate leaders, to Georgia, where the state flag still bears Confederacy emblems. And online sales of the flag are reportedly surging, even though Amazon, eBay, Walmart and Sears all stopped selling the so-called “Stars and Bars.”

“They are less ubiquitous than they once were but they’re still very prevalent and they’ve taken on different meanings over time,” said Adam Domby, who holds a doctorate in Civil War history from the University of North Carolina Chapel Hill.

While the flag may carry several meanings – from slavery to states’ rights to Southern heritage – Domby said one matter is indisputable: its origin.

"The Declaration of Secession of South Carolina said, “We want to leave the Union because of X, Y and Z. When you look at what X, Y and Z are, every one of them links back to slavery in some way,” Domby told FoxNews.com.

“Individuals fought in the (Civil) war for different reasons but they were all fighting to maintain a way of life that was based upon a slave economy,” he said. “That’s what the flag meant in 1862.”

“Part of the problem is a disjuncture between what caused the war and what individuals want to honor,” he added. “Groups like the Sons of Confederate Veterans want to honor their ancestors but their ancestors were human and like all humans were flawed.”

“Yes they may have fought gallantly for their state but they fought gallantly for a cause that was quite different than that which the United States was founded upon – that great truth that all men were created equal,” he said. “If they want to fly that flag at their house, that’s one thing. But when you’re flying it at the state Capitol it sends a message to a lot of people that ‘You’re not welcome here.’”

even Fox is treading lightly on this one!

What happened to “your” no politics rule??

[QUOTE=coldduck;164359]What happened to “your” no politics rule??[/QUOTE]

where’s the politics here? we’re talking about a symbol that many view as akin to white supremacy…you down with that?

Oh brother here we go…

That is NOT the Confederate Flag. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flags_of_the_Confederate_States_of_America

Wait then what is it. Being a true Yankee maybe I don’t know the difference, but if like to understand your culture.

Many of us here are offended by this flag and it’s implied intellectual superiority.

There are many Native Americans who are offended by this flag. It represents Manifest Destiny otherwise known as the largest land grab in North America. After all the Native Americans have been doing homeland security since 1492. Where is your outrage for what this flag represents to them and all victims of our rampant colonialism? I say we ban everything…

Agreed. Only solution to our problems is to ban everything.

And they get outraged about the Taliban destroying old cultural and religious monuments.

Alex Stephens Vice President of the Confederacy: “Our new government is founded upon exactly the opposite idea; its foundations are laid, its corner- stone rests, upon the great truth that the negro is not equal to the white man; that slavery subordination to the superior race is his natural and normal condition. This, our new government, is the first, in the history of the world, based upon this great physical, philosophical, and moral truth.”

Seems pretty fucking clear cut what the flag stands for…

No one here is denying what it stands for or glorifying it.

[QUOTE=Fraqrat;164397]No one here is denying what it stands for or glorifying it.[/QUOTE]

No one is talking about banning it either. It shouldn’t be flown on government property.

I would say most here fully agree with that, I know I do. Scooter started this thread with the sole purpose of skewering and inflaming people from the south. His account has been frozen out and he can’t participate in any thread he hasn’t started. He’s bored and therefore he found something he hopes will start some shit. Problem is I don’t think anyone from down here disagrees. My comments are about the cause crowd. This week it’s confederate flags. A couple of weeks from now feminist will want to ban hot dogs on the fourth. They will be offended by the phallic shape and what it represents. A few weeks after that the ASPCA will want the Chicago Bears to change their mascot. They will file a motion in court on behalf of all bears stating they are offended at their likeness being used in that manner. And on and on it goes.

[QUOTE=Fraqrat;164384]There are many Native Americans who are offended by this flag. It represents Manifest Destiny otherwise known as the largest land grab in North America. After all the Native Americans have been doing homeland security since 1492. Where is your outrage for what this flag represents to them and all victims of our rampant colonialism? I say we ban everything…[/QUOTE]

The horrors and theft inflicted upon the native people living in what became the USA is a GREAT and EVERLASTING SHAME upon this nation. We should all hang our heads for the people who lost everything so that MONEY RULED as it always does. Canada on the otherhand never did to the natives living there what the USA did which was akin to genocide. Sheridan said it all…

“The only good Indians I ever saw were dead.”

Between the wholesale slaughter of native Americans, the firebombing of Japanese civilians when the war was as good as over and the wholesale slaughter of the Vietnamese, the USA has little to hold its head up high over…we are a Nation with blood on our hands!

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[QUOTE=Fraqrat;164402]I would say most here fully agree with that, I know I do. Scooter started this thread with the sole purpose of skewering and inflaming people from the south. His account has been frozen out and he can’t participate in any thread he hasn’t started. He’s bored and therefore he found something he hopes will start some shit. Problem is I don’t think anyone from down here disagrees. My comments are about the cause crowd. This week it’s confederate flags. A couple of weeks from now feminist will want to ban hot dogs on the fourth. They will be offended by the phallic shape and what it represents. A few weeks after that the ASPCA will want the Chicago Bears to change their mascot. They will file a motion in court on behalf of all bears stating they are offended at their likeness being used in that manner. And on and on it goes.[/QUOTE]

be careful who you paint with your brush Fraq…

Alabama Gov. Bentley removes Confederate flags from Capitol grounds


A worker removes a Confederate flag from the Alabama Capitol grounds on June 24, 2015.

On the order of Gov. Robert Bentley, the Confederate battle flag which stands at the foot of the confederate memorial on the state Capitol grounds was taken down this morning.

Two workers came out of the Capitol building about 8:20 a.m. and with no fanfare quickly and quietly took the flag down. They declined to answer questions.

Moments later Gov. Bentley emerged from the Capitol on his way to an appearance in Hackleburg. Asked if he had ordered the flag taken down, the governor said, “Yes I did.”

Asked his reasons for taking it down and if it included what happened in Charleston last week, the governor said, “Yes, partially this is about that. This is the right thing to do. We are facing some major issues in this state regarding the budget and other matters that we need to deal with. This had the potential to become a major distraction as we go forward. I have taxes to raise, we have work to do. And it was my decision that the flag needed to come down.”

Bentley said before he made the final decision he checked to see if there were any impediments in the law or state policy that would prevent him from taking down the flag and found none, so he acted.

After the battle flag – which is at the center of the controversy – was gone, workers began removing three other Civil War era flags.
Mike Williams and Jamel Brown react to the Confederate Flag being removed from state properties Mike William and Jamel Brown are two people who came to the Capitol grounds to talk about the removal of the Confederate Flag from state property. On opposites sides of the issue hear what they have to say about the flag’s removal at the order of Governor Robert Bentley.

They are the First National Confederate Flag, commonly preferred to as the “Stars and Bars;” the second flag is the Second National Confederate Flag, more commonly known as the “Stainless Banner;” and the last flag standing is the Third National Confederate Flag.

About 90 minutes after the battle flag was removed, about a half dozen workers removed those remaining flags. The workers did not answer questions.

The view of the flags on the huge monument has been obstructed by the heavy trees at the site which is just at the bottom of the steps leading to the main doors of the Capitol’s north entrance and is surrounded by a wrought iron fence. It is a very short walk from the governor’s office.

The cornerstone of the Confederate monument was laid by Jefferson Davis, president of the CSA (Confederate States of America) on April 29, 1880.

After the flags were removed, a protester carrying a Confederate flag showed up at the monument.

“If you don’t change people’s hearts, changing a flag won’t do anything toward racism,” said Mike Williams of the Sons of Confederate Veterans.

Finally people are waking up to what I have said all along that the Confederate flag symbolizes all that is rotten and festering in the South. Time for it to be “officially” put away FOREVER!

Now they’re gone, what’s the next thing we do to fix things? Detail your master plan.

I think the queen is going to rescind your independence as you have messed up so you will be getting the British Flag again.lol

https://www.facebook.com/notes/scotland/to-the-citizens-of-the-united-states-of-america-from-her-sovereign-majesty-queen/291122994249694

build a fleet of new icebreakers with huge guns on them!

we did it before and we can do it again!

Will there be special 6000itc icebreaker endorsements? If so I’m all in…

[QUOTE=Rafterman;164399]No one is talking about banning it either. It shouldn’t be flown on government property.[/QUOTE]

personally, I believe it should have been banned starting in 1865 and eventually it would have become only a relic of a very distant past and time when this nation fought itself over the barbaric institution of humans owning other humans!

I was born and raised 15 min from Downtown Columbia where the flag currently flies. I was brought up learning about the history about surrounding the flag, Sherman’s march through Columbia, Atlanta, etc.

While the flag is an important part of history in the south, it has increasingly become associated with hate and malice towards others. If it needs to be taken away from where it is now, fine.

However, I do not feel it should be taken away from historical sites. If it’s flown at Fort Sumter, should it be taken down from there too? Should a museum be vilified if they have it on display? How far will people go?

There must become a point where history stops becoming erased because certain groups don’t like something. Like Fraq said, one week it’s the Chicago Bears, next week it will be something else. People will use anything to rally around for a cause, good or evil. In this case, some kid chose the flag as his pedestal to stand on.

Instead of bringing up the supposed motives for the shooting, let’s lift up the families affected by this guy in prayer. Several families were altered forever when he took away the lives of their loved ones.