Oceans endorsement only issued for domestic?

Here’s a curve ball I wasn’t expecting.
After a week under evaluation, getting the oceans endorsement on my national license was approved, but internationally it hasn’t been.
I’ve been back and forth with the nmc trying to see what the hold up is, because this is a first for me not having both domestic and international issued at the same time.
The only bit of information I’ve gotten was my evaluator has some kind of issue with the course certificate pertaining to the international issuance and was seeking assistance from their management. Any ideas on what the issue would be? How could the course certificate suffice the domestic requirements and not international?

Did the school sign of the oceans assessments as well? I don’t think the course certificate can count for the assessments, which are required for the STCW oceans endorsement.

I just received clarification from the nmc. The issue is assessments, which became a requirement after Dec 31 2016.
Now the fun of trying to get an assessment done. I don’t understand the logic. The domestic license is restricted to the boundary lines, so isn’t having an oceans endorsement on that make this all a moot point since STCW is required to go beyond the boundary lines?

I just added Oceans to my 1600 Ton Master, Master of Towing and Less than 3000 GT so this thread made me go back and check my license. I thought there was a problem at first but I looked back at my old license and on the domestic side it said 1600 Ton Master Near Coastal. Now that says 1600 Ton Master Upon Oceans. On the International side it said "Not Valid on vessels 3000 Gross Tons or more Limited to Near Coastal Waters, Valid for service on Towing vessels. The new international License says the exact same thing with the “Limited to Near Coastal Waters” removed. So basically for the international it seems they treat it as removing a limitation and for Domestic its adding an endorsement. At least that’s what it looks like to me…

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That’s what I’ve gathered as well…and for me to remove the limitation the course certificate doesn’t suffice for whatever reason. I have a call into the school I took the course at to see about that issue. I’m thinking it may be near impossible for me to get the assessments done but I won’t know for sure until I get the actual letter in the mail.
Did you add oceans before or after Dec 31 2016?

Just took the course this January and got my license back a couple weeks ago. Where did you go to school?

maritime institute san diego in February. I’ve called them about this a couple times and I’m attempting to be patient while I wait for their feedback.

They claim it can only be used to upgrade EITHER the domestic license OR the STCW endorsement (OICNW). I’m not sure why it couldn’t be used for both.

Also, it doesn’t say it can count towards​ STCW II/2, Master, at all. It’s an “operational level” course, not management level. Maybe the USCG isn’t letting courses substitute for testing for management level endorsements anymore.

From their website:

Any applicant who has successfully complete this ten (10) day Celestial Navigation (Operational Level) course, will satisfy ALL the celestial navigation examination requirements of 11.40l(d) for an increase in scope from Near Coastal to Oceans endorsement for ONE of the following:

to any deck officer credential up to Master or Mate not more than 500/1600 GT,

OR, to a credential as Master or Mate of Offshore Supply Vessels,

OR, to a credential as Master or Mate of Uninspected Fishing Industry Vessels;

OR, the Celestial Navigation training requirements of Section A-II/1, Table A-II / 1 of the STCW Code, as amended, for certification as Officer in Charge of a Navigational Watch on vessels of 500 or more GT.

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initially when I went there they said it would work for master or mate. I currently hold a 500 grt master and 1600 grt Osv master.the only thing I heard regarding testing was any unlimited license would have to test at a rec center and a course certificate would only work for limited licenses.

Maybe the assessments are only the OICNW ones and not the management level ones.

I think it may be that your license is for 500 Tons or less. I think because the OSV limitation is only a domestic endorsement that it doesn’t count towards STCW for 500 Gross Tons or more. That’s just speculation but that’s the only difference I can see between what I had and what you had. My school cert reads the same as what was posted above. I had a 1600 NC and a Less than 3000 NC international. Just a thought.

I also have less than 3000 gt on my international side, and that’s for the 500 grt and 1600 grt Osv. Int’l crossover for 500 is 3000 gt as well.

Ok, I’m not familiar with the OSV stuff. Never worked that side of the business. Always worked tugs.

Hello Ctony,
Which assessments do you need to complete? We maybe able to help you at PMI.

I haven’t received the letter from the NMC yet, but it appears there are 6 different celestial assessments required to take the limitation off of my OICNW.
I talked with a co-worker recently that went to a different school and he told me two of the assessments were allowed to be signed off by the school and the other four had to be done underway.
I’m hoping I can get these done next time my boat runs but if I encounter any more pitfalls I’ll look into PMI. Thanks.

That sounds about right the missing assessments would be a star running fix, sun running fix, sextant adjustment, sun observation, star observation and observation of LAN. PMI is now approved to do them all in the simulator, so if there aren’t any Qualified Assessors on your boat, let us know! You may also just want to take the class for the knowledge to pass the exams. PMI’s course is approved for the assessments AND the test modules required for the increase in scope of mate/masters 500-1600T(so no testing at the REC)

Got the letter in the mail today. The issue is for the management level endorsement II/2, not the OICNW. Looking at my course certificate it specifies operational level and not management.
The assessments they are asking for before issuance are create a voyage plan, great circle sailing, Mercator sailing, meridian transit other than the sun, star identification, star selection and GPS routing. Since I did this ad nauseum in the class I’m hoping the school can resolve this. If not I hope they give a heads up to future students of this pitfall.


These STCW requirements are getting more and more confusing. This thread has me scratching my head! I searched the web for different types of celestial classes offered at different schools. Seems most of them offer “operational” level classes. Any “management” level classes I saw seemed geared toward unlimited licenses - C/M and Master. Also seems to be confusion on the definitions of Operational and Management- maybe just on my part. I’ve seen some refer to management level meaning unlimited, and others refer to management as Master 500/1600 level. I’m stumped.
I have 500 Master NC, 1600 Mate NC, Master of TV NC on the national license. STCW endorsements: Master less than 3000GT and OICNW less than 3000GT both valid for towing vessels but restricted to Near Coastal voyages. I’m signed up for a celestial course that says operational level-

So I’m guessing I’ll be in the same boat as Ctony- which will mean that I’ll only be able to sail as OICNW on an International voyage farther than 200 miles from shore. But with the National license you can go past 200 miles as long as it’s a domestic voyage? This stuff makes your head hurt after a while…

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The requirements are the same for all tonnage levels of CM/Master.

Any STCW II/2 is management level, regardless of tonnage limit, and any STCW II/1 (OICNW) is operational level, regardless of tonnage limit.

Ok so I need to take a management level celestial course to remove the NC limitation from my Master >3000GT?