Chief Mate AGT... Old system vs. New system

Professional Mariner Forum
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Struggling through the muck of the 2010 STCW Manilla Amendment and trying to see how they correspond to the new “National” license. Ultimately I want to apply for the CM AGT upon Oceans, but first I am trying to understand exactly why we need a “National” license scheme? Once you cross the demarcation line you are subject to STCW conventions as I understand it so what does the “National” license do that the STCW doesn’t? Seems we only need an inland and STCW. Anyway, on to the task at hand.

Any thoughts on whether it is best to apply under the old system? I already hold a 2nd Mate AGT Oceans as well as 6000 OSV on my Master 1600/3000 Oceans. I have the required 360 days over 3000 ITC to upgrade. What I read for the National ticket is that any tonnage will be listed as GRT only… I am not on a boat that has GRT tonnage listed, so that will be quite useless to have. The STCW ticket seems to be accepted world wide so why do I even need the National rubber stamp, can I not just upgrade the STCW ticket and let that be that? As long as I am just applying for the STCW CM AGT Oceans does it even matter what system I apply under?

I thought I had a bit of an understanding on these amendments, but the more I read the NVICs and CFRs, the more confused I become. I am open to discussion if no one has the exact answer, however, I am hoping to limit that discussion to the Chief Mate upgrade.

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[QUOTE=Ea$y Money;135246]Struggling through the muck of the 2010 STCW Manilla Amendment and trying to see how they correspond to the new “National” license. Ultimately I want to apply for the CM AGT upon Oceans, but first I am trying to understand exactly why we need a “National” license scheme? Once you cross the demarcation line you are subject to STCW conventions as I understand it so what does the “National” license do that the STCW doesn’t? Seems we only need an inland and STCW. Anyway, on to the task at hand.

Any thoughts on whether it is best to apply under the old system? I already hold a 2nd Mate AGT Oceans as well as 6000 OSV on my Master 1600/3000 Oceans. I have the required 360 days over 3000 ITC to upgrade. What I read for the National ticket is that any tonnage will be listed as GRT only… I am not on a boat that has GRT tonnage listed, so that will be quite useless to have. The STCW ticket seems to be accepted world wide so why do I even need the National rubber stamp, can I not just upgrade the STCW ticket and let that be that? As long as I am just applying for the STCW CM AGT Oceans does it even matter what system I apply under?

I thought I had a bit of an understanding on these amendments, but the more I read the NVICs and CFRs, the more confused I become. I am open to discussion if no one has the exact answer, however, I am hoping to limit that discussion to the Chief Mate upgrade.[/QUOTE]

There are some minor changes to the exams for the national license for Chief Mate Oceans under the new rule, some stuff added, some removed. You probably wouldn’t notice the change. For STCW, there are courses required under the new rule for Advanced Ship Handling, Advanced Stability, and Advanced Meteorology that aren’t required under the old rule.

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[QUOTE=jdcavo;135315]There are some minor changes to the exams for the national license for Chief Mate Oceans under the new rule, some stuff added, some removed. You probably wouldn’t notice the change. For STCW, there are courses required under the new rule for Advanced Ship Handling, Advanced Stability, and Advanced Meteorology that aren’t required under the old rule.[/QUOTE]

If you could shed some light on a specific question or two regarding the National/STCW licensing???

Per NVIC 02-14 Enclosure (3) National deck officer endorsements for 1,600 GRT and/or 3,000 GT. Wording “on or after March 24, 2014” “Endorsement is less than 1600 GRT” Beginning on March 24, 2014 only GRT will be used on national officer endorsements other than Master (OSV); Chief Mate (OSV), and Mate (OSV).

So, this means that any National ticket that is less than Unlimited tonnage the tonnage restriction will be listed as GRT only. And since there not a conversion for GRT to GT, that will mean that all the mariners working on a GT only vessel will have a useless piece of paper? Am I also correct that an unlimited tonnage National ticket will apply for any vessel regardless of how the tonnage is listed GRT and/or GT in any combination?

Same enclosure a few pages down they list the new wording for the STCW side of the ticket. Similarly, the wording for the tonnage restriction “Endorsement has limitation for vessels 500 GT or More and Less Than 3,000 GT” Beginning on March 24, 2014, only GT will be used on STCW deck officer endorsements

So, if you work on a vessel that only list GT, then you have no choice but to obtain the STCW.endorsement if you are to legally serve as an officer??

I will stop there. I have other clarifications but maybe all this is best in small doses.

I do appreciate all your support to this forum!

4

[QUOTE=jdcavo;135315]There are some minor changes to the exams for the national license for Chief Mate Oceans…[/QUOTE]

Here are the specific changes:

Subjects added:

Communications:

  • GMDSS
  • IMO Standard Maritime Communication Phrases

Subjects removed:

Times of Celestial Phenomena:

  • Zone Time Moon Rise/Set
    Compass-Magnetic and Gyro:
  • Magnetic Compass Adjustment
  • Gyro Controlled Systems
    Tides and Tidal Currents:
  • Extensive Tidal Effects
    Cargo Handling and Stowage:
  • Tank Vessel Safety
  • Cargo Piping and Pumping Systems
  • Cargo Oil Terms and Definitions
  • Ballasting, Tank Cleaning, & Gas Free Ops
  • Load on Top Procedures
    Communications:
  • Radiotelegraphy Emergency Distress Signals
  • Flashing Light
    Medical Care:
  • First Aid

This is not inside information. You can find the same for any endorsement by comparing the exam subject tables in 46 CFR 11.910 from the old/rule to the new/ rule.

Note that until March 24, 2019, if you began the sea service for the endorsement before March 24, 2014, you have the option of testing under the old or new rules.

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Thank you Mr Cavo, however I am more concerned with the GRT as the ONLY tonnage that the National license will reflect if you have a tonnage limitation. If my interpretation is correct then any mariners serving aboard a vessel with only ITC tonnage listed will not be legal. The reason this this is such a big deal is that I don’t know of any OSV that shows GRT tonnage… All or most have GT only. So my previous post was more about what is going to be printed on the ticket. Seems like anyone sailing on a GT vessel MUST have STCW. Why does anybody need a National ticket?

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[QUOTE=jdcavo;135315] For STCW, there are courses required under the new rule for Advanced Ship Handling, Advanced Stability, and Advanced Meteorology that aren’t required under the old rule.[/QUOTE]

In 11.311 there’s a new class Management of Medical Care that I didn’t have to take for my mate’s, ten years ago. Is that the same a VI/4.2 Medical Care-PIC? Or does one supersede the other?

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[QUOTE=Orniphobe;135812]In 11.311 there’s a new class Management of Medical Care that I didn’t have to take for my mate’s, ten years ago. Is that the same a VI/4.2 Medical Care-PIC? Or does one supersede the other?[/QUOTE]

It’s not the “Medical Care Provider” course that was required for OICNW. It’s a separate course on management issues of medical care, not providing care. It’s about one day of a two week medical PIC course, so most medical PIC courses will malso cover this requirement. If you don’t have a Medical PIC course, it will probably be a 1 or at most 2 day course.

Also,. if any of the time you use for the endorsement is from before March 24, 2014, and you apply for the endorsement before January 1, 2017, you are grandfathered and don’t have to take it.

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[QUOTE=Ea$y Money;135397]If you could shed some light on a specific question or two regarding the National/STCW licensing???

Per NVIC 02-14 Enclosure (3) National deck officer endorsements for 1,600 GRT and/or 3,000 GT. Wording “on or after March 24, 2014” “Endorsement is less than 1600 GRT” Beginning on March 24, 2014 only GRT will be used on national officer endorsements other than Master (OSV); Chief Mate (OSV), and Mate (OSV).

So, this means that any National ticket that is less than Unlimited tonnage the tonnage restriction will be listed as GRT only. And since there not a conversion for GRT to GT, that will mean that all the mariners working on a GT only vessel will have a useless piece of paper? Am I also correct that an unlimited tonnage National ticket will apply for any vessel regardless of how the tonnage is listed GRT and/or GT in any combination?

Same enclosure a few pages down they list the new wording for the STCW side of the ticket. Similarly, the wording for the tonnage restriction “Endorsement has limitation for vessels 500 GT or More and Less Than 3,000 GT” Beginning on March 24, 2014, only GT will be used on STCW deck officer endorsements

So, if you work on a vessel that only list GT, then you have no choice but to obtain the STCW.endorsement if you are to legally serve as an officer??

I will stop there. I have other clarifications but maybe all this is best in small doses.

I do appreciate all your support to this forum![/QUOTE]

Is this the 800 pound gorilla that no one wants to comment on? Mr. Cavo?

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Mr. Cavo,

After looking through the assessment package in NVIC 10-14, there are only only 6 Assessments for weather 7.1.A- 7.4.C, it says Course off to the side but then says Note 1 below Course. Note 1 refers to "Assessment is NOT required if the mariner holds an STCW endorsement as Master or Chief Mate for 500GT or more and less than 3,000GT.

So does that mean Note 1 trumps having to take the Course?

Also under the previous policy letter 04-02 many of the assessments could be done in classes. I notice the star center says they have optional classes to cover all of the assessments in NVIC 10-14. On the old control sheets it always had a blank for " Vessel or Training Course", on the new " record of assessment" page there is only a spot for vessel, nothing about courses. So if I take an optional course at the star center does USCG consider the course certificate covers the assessments, or does the qualified assessor just put course in the “vessel” space and fill out the rest like the old assessments?

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[QUOTE=Ea$y Money;135699]Thank you Mr Cavo, however I am more concerned with the GRT as the ONLY tonnage that the National license will reflect if you have a tonnage limitation. If my interpretation is correct then any mariners serving aboard a vessel with only ITC tonnage listed will not be legal. The reason this this is such a big deal is that I don’t know of any OSV that shows GRT tonnage… All or most have GT only. So my previous post was more about what is going to be printed on the ticket. Seems like anyone sailing on a GT vessel MUST have STCW. Why does anybody need a National ticket?[/QUOTE]

The National License will only list GRT but the STCW License will list GT. A 1600/3000 ton license is listed as 1600 on the National and as 3000 on the STCW. If you have the necessary time on tonnage your license will be unlimited, so why does this matter at all?

Also, you cannot just apply for an STCW Chief Mate license.

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[QUOTE=GLMASailor;159787]After looking through the assessment package in NVIC 10-14, there are only only 6 Assessments for weather 7.1.A- 7.4.C, it says Course off to the side but then says Note 1 below Course. Note 1 refers to "Assessment is NOT required if the mariner holds an STCW endorsement as Master or Chief Mate for 500GT or more and less than 3,000GT. So does that mean Note 1 trumps having to take the Course?[/QUOTE]

No. The course requirement is in the CFR and can’t be changed or waived by policy (NVICs).

[QUOTE=GLMASailor;159787]Also under the previous policy letter 04-02 many of the assessments could be done in classes. I notice the star center says they have optional classes to cover all of the assessments in NVIC 10-14. On the old control sheets it always had a blank for " Vessel or Training Course", on the new " record of assessment" page there is only a spot for vessel, nothing about courses. So if I take an optional course at the star center does USCG consider the course certificate covers the assessments, or does the qualified assessor just put course in the “vessel” space and fill out the rest like the old assessments?[/QUOTE]

A course will only substitute for assessments if the approval of the course specifically states that certain assessments are met by taking the course, or if the instructor is allowed to do the assessment and it is actually done. The only exceptions are where the assessment in the NVIC has the right three columns merged and there is text that says the KUP is satisfied by completing the course. In the Record of Assessment (Encl 3) this will be noted by the assessor initials and date cells being merged and shaded.

Assessments in courses are of two types. The approval of the course will either say something like the course is accepted as [U][I]equivalent to assessments X, Y, and Z[/I][/U]; or it will say that [U][I]in conjunction [/I][/U]with the course, an instructor may sign for successful assessments. In the former the assessments are mandatory parts of the course and you cannot pass the course without successfully completing the assessment. For these courses, the course certificate will be evidence of the assessment. In the latter the assessments are optional and the instructor only signs if they are successfully done, the course certificate will not be evidence of assessment.

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[QUOTE=Ea$y Money;135699]I am more concerned with the GRT as the ONLY tonnage that the National license will reflect if you have a tonnage limitation. If my interpretation is correct then any mariners serving aboard a vessel with only ITC tonnage listed will not be legal. The reason this this is such a big deal is that I don’t know of any OSV that shows GRT tonnage… [/QUOTE]

See 46 CFR 11.211(h): [I]When determining sea service credit for officer endorsement applicants under subpart D of this part, the tonnage of a vessel solely admeasured using the Convention measurement scheme under 46 U.S.C. Chapter 143 will be credited as Gross Register Tonnage[/I]

and 46 CFR 11.301(b): [I]Service accrued onboard vessels with dual tonnages (both domestic and international) will be credited using the international tonnage for the credential sought[/I].

[QUOTE=Ea$y Money;135699]…Why does anybody need a National ticket?[/QUOTE]

[QUOTE=Capt. Phoenix;159934]…you cannot just apply for an STCW Chief Mate license.[/QUOTE]

See 46 CFR 11.201(a): [I]An applicant for any STCW endorsement must hold the appropriate national endorsement unless otherwise specified[/I].