Maritime Unions, the Good, the Bad, and the Ugly

Professional Mariner Forum
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I don’t want to derail the other thread but maritime unions don’t necessarily or exclusively use the seniority system.

This has been gone over before but some positions are rotary, that is out of the hall and some are permanent, hired by the company. The four top positions, master, C/E, C/M and 1 A/E are usually all permanent. To get those jobs you have to get hired by the company and will need recommendations from the captain and chiefs.

If your ship gets laid up or sold you’re out of work and may or may not get severance depending on the contract. However you can ship out of the hall ahead of guys with lower seniority in the union.

Also as has been pointed out many companies do all their hiring and mariners join after getting hired.

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[QUOTE=Kennebec Captain;161238]I don’t want to derail the other thread but maritime unions don’t necessarily or exclusively use the seniority system.

This has been gone over before but some positions are rotary, that is out of the hall and some are permanent, hired by the company. The four top positions, master, C/E, C/M and 1 A/E are usually all permanent. To get those jobs you have to get hired by the company and will need recommendations from the captain and chiefs.

If your ship gets laid up or sold you’re out of work and may or may not get severance depending on the contract. However you can ship out of the hall ahead of guys with lower seniority in the union.

Also as has been pointed out many companies do all their hiring and mariners join after getting hired.[/QUOTE]

Hey I am very surprised that this subject has been discussed over the last week without threads getting locked or people getting irate. So one of my other comments was something to the effect of pay vs control. I always assumed, not saying correctly, that the union only existed to get higher wages and benefits. Seems that there is some merit based job security, so why do you think they are so against it in the oil field? And just for the record, you can look at all my posts I am not pro Union, but it has rarely been the occasion that it could be discussed in a civil manner.

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Yes I look forward to civil discussion on this matter.

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[QUOTE=Jeaux Bawss;161240]Yes I look forward to civil discussion on this matter.[/QUOTE]I guarantee you it will be anything but civil

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Oh boy hear we go, I hear a rumbling coming from the west coast…

1 Like
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[QUOTE=Ea$y Money;161239]Hey I am very surprised that this subject has been discussed over the last week without threads getting locked or people getting irate. So one of my other comments was something to the effect of pay vs control. I always assumed, not saying correctly, that the union only existed to get higher wages and benefits. Seems that there is some merit based job security, so why do you think they are so against it in the oil field? And just for the record, you can look at all my posts I am not pro Union, but it has rarely been the occasion that it could be discussed in a civil manner.[/QUOTE]

Unions are not just about pay and benefits. They are also a source of maritime expertise. The companies want profits, the regulators want safety. When shit hits the fan it easy for each to point fingers at the mariner.

Look at the reporting on the most recent passenger plane crash. The media talked to the company and the regulators and they had their say. But they also spoke to the pilots union who had a completely different point of view.

By contrast the post about the oil barges on the Hudson River, they reporter discusses what AWO has to say (companies don’t hesitate to pay dues to an organization to get their voice heard) and what the Coast Guard had to say but what about the guys in the wheelhouse pushing those red flag barges with their license on the line? Nothing heard.

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[QUOTE=Ea$y Money;161239]Hey I am very surprised that this subject has been discussed over the last week without threads getting locked or people getting irate. So one of my other comments was something to the effect of pay vs control. I always assumed, not saying correctly, that the union only existed to get higher wages and benefits. Seems that there is some merit based job security, so why do you think they are so against it in the oil field? And just for the record, you can look at all my posts I am not pro Union, but it has rarely been the occasion that it could be discussed in a civil manner.[/QUOTE]

Maybe we aren’t so much “Against it” here in the GOM, but rather we fail to see any benifits gained from having a union represent us. In a nutshell, any well run company has a certain percentage of it’s budget designated for payroll, benifits, and training. Introducing a union into the mix only adds another “Employee” to the payroll, an employee that is non revenue producing. So the pie now gets cut into smaller slices in order to pay the union their share for doing nothing. As for the union getting us better benifits, training, vacation, etc. OK, I’ll grant you they may be able to do that. However, those increased perks will come at the price of a decreased rate of pay. Again no matter how many slices you cut the pie into, it is still only a certain size.

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[QUOTE=cajuntugster;161259]Maybe we aren’t so much “Against it” here in the GOM, but rather we fail to see any benifits gained from having a union represent us. In a nutshell, any well run company has a certain percentage of it’s budget designated for payroll, benifits, and training. Introducing a union into the mix only adds another “Employee” to the payroll, an employee that is non revenue producing. So the pie now gets cut into smaller slices in order to pay the union their share for doing nothing. As for the union getting us better benifits, training, vacation, etc. OK, I’ll grant you they may be able to do that. However, those increased perks will come at the price of a decreased rate of pay. Again no matter how many slices you cut the pie into, it is still only a certain size.[/QUOTE]

According to this article you’re leaving a shit ton of money on the table.

Cook on Offshore Natural Gas Rig is Paid $240,000 a Year

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Hey we have a cook at this company right now worth every bit of that. Sure hope he doesn’t see this and haul ass. It’s very hard to find a cook that can accommodate several people’s different food allergies and lay a spread out that’s mostly paleo to boot. Plus do it all under budget and he’s from cut off.

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[QUOTE=Fraqrat;161261]Hey we have a cook at this company right now worth every bit of that. Sure hope he doesn’t see this and haul ass. It’s very hard to find a cook that can accommodate several people’s different food allergies and lay a spread out that’s mostly paleo to boot. Plus do it all under budget and he’s from cut off.[/QUOTE]

A good cook is worth their weight in gold.

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The difference between union and non-union wages is called the union wage premium" Depending who you ask union wages are about 10% above non-union.Union workers are more productive then non-union

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This is not what I have observed first hand or from talking with peers at industry conferences. If I had to explain to a customer that his drilling supplies could not be delivered because the vessel didn’t have the right laundry detergent I would lose business. Some of these contracts I’ve seen are ridiculous.

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[QUOTE=Kennebec Captain;161238]I don’t want to derail the other thread but maritime unions don’t necessarily or exclusively use the seniority system.

This has been gone over before but some positions are rotary, that is out of the hall and some are permanent, hired by the company. The four top positions, master, C/E, C/M and 1 A/E are usually all permanent. To get those jobs you have to get hired by the company and will need recommendations from the captain and chiefs.

[B]If your ship gets laid up or sold you’re out of work and may or may not get severance depending on the contract. However you can ship out of the hall ahead of guys with lower seniority in the union.[/B]

Also as has been pointed out many companies do all their hiring and mariners join after getting hired.[/QUOTE]

[B]If your ship gets laid up or sold you’re out of work and may or may not get severance depending on the contract.[/B]

I don’t know of which union you speak of, but that is not how MMP Offshore works for MLL when it’s just a ship or two. I can’t say for sure about ISC, APL, Matson, or Horizon but I’m not willing to bet against it being the same.

Very recent examples include MLL flag-outs (not replaced) of Alliance Richmond. Those 2 Capts, and 2 C/Ms are MLL employees (3 of 4 very long term, I might add), not just Alliance Richmond employees. MLL has found them spots on other MMP MLL contracted vessels where there were holes, after MLL [B]TRIED[/B] to walk away from similar situations in the past by just saying your job left with your ship. I don’t know that the Capts stayed Capts, but the C/Ms certainly stayed at same position. Only perm. jobs in MMP offshore are Capt and C/M.

Not too long ago, a Sulphur Enterpise master retired, and lots of ISC C/Ms and some Captains (Waterman, Central Gulf, and Energy Enterprise) all thought they had seniority and first crack at the S/E Capt opening. The seasoned C/M on the S/E was now having to seriously fend off suitors for a Capt’s job that was most certainly one he deserved the first shot at. In the end he was protected by the MMP contract covering promotions within the company. Sulphur Carriers was a one ship company, end of story. This was prior to ISC buying UMG/TECO.

There are a lot of little things in all those horrible, nasty, evil union contracts that do protect the employee when no one else is going to, whether its vacancies or lost ships.

[B]However you can ship out of the hall ahead of guys with lower seniority in the union.[/B]

If a company employee quits or decides to ship off the board, he has to wait some period of time (about 2 weeks) before getting a new shipping card. He/She may be an A book, but they will be an A book with a brand new card and well over a hundred A books ahead of him/her.

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[QUOTE=Jeaux Bawss;161267]This is not what I have observed first hand or from talking with peers at industry conferences. If I had to explain to a customer that his drilling supplies could not be delivered because the vessel didn’t have the right laundry detergent I would lose business. Some of these contracts I’ve seen are ridiculous.[/QUOTE]

Yeah but very few people fuss over laundry detergent. I suspect you are tossing that out there as a straw man. The real beefs I have seen involve pay, including overtime and penalty pay for certain types of especially dirty or hazardous work. Sometimes, it’s over food but food is important.

And I dare you to name one ship that didn’t get underway over something like that. If it happens it is exceedingly rare.

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Might be dating myself but does anyone remember the so called “company unions”. I know they existed in the 70’s and belonged to one myself for a few years. These always struck me as the best of both worlds. The official name usually had “…employees association” tacked on the end. You paid some very low dues. The union “officials” were usually 3 of your shipmates (elected) serving part time, who formed a board of some type and the dues hire a labor lawyer who showed up about every 3 years to sit with the board and negotiate with the company. The nice part was this lawyer was usually used by just about all the different company unions so he had the latest dope on pay and benefits so was advising from a point of having some knowledge about the rest of the industry.

You got hired by the company but joined this association once hired. All jobs were “permanent” in that regard, no union hall / waiting for a ship. Nice to have a formal grievance process and some basic work rules regarding overtime and penalty time jobs etc. No rules or contract clauses about laundry detergent either. Seemed closer to the original intent of organizing labor to me. No big overhead, less chance of corruption issues, etc. The guys on the board were working right next to you.

Guess they all went the way of the oil company tanker fleets and small independent tanker companies, that’s where I knew they existed.

Of course as far as a providing a big platform from which seafarers could voice their opinion as mentioned above - that would not be the case unless the small associations formed an affiliation for PR / expertise / lobbying issues. But that’s where the overhead / bureaucracy could creep back in to the scheme I guess - once you set up that central organization.

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[QUOTE=Jeaux Bawss;161267]This is not what I have observed first hand or from talking with peers at industry conferences. If I had to explain to a customer that his drilling supplies could not be delivered because the vessel didn’t have the right laundry detergent I would lose business. Some of these contracts I’ve seen are ridiculous.[/QUOTE]

Why on earth would a company sign a contract with such a ridiculous provision?

In real contracts quality of life items are written with enough loopholes you can beat them if so motivated. If for example for some absurd reason union negotiators thought it was worthwhile to dicker over laundry soup brands there would be a “if available” or 'equivalent brand" wording written in. If you don’t meet the requirement the crew can put in a beef, not tie up the boat.

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I’ve been thinking in my head something very similar to this. Maybe even having the elected reps sit in on board meetings?? Seems perfect to me and agreeable to all.

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[QUOTE=catherder;161270]Yeah but very few people fuss over laundry detergent. I suspect you are tossing that out there as a straw man. The real beefs I have seen involve pay, including overtime and penalty pay for certain types of especially dirty or hazardous work. Sometimes, it’s over food but food is important.

[B]And I dare you to name one ship that didn’t get underway over something like that.[/B] If it happens it is exceedingly rare.[/QUOTE]

There was a notable incident over the lack of Skippy Peanut Butter (required per CBA) on an SUP-crewed ship (either Matson or APL).

Trying to get the name…

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Don’t think that detergent statement even rises to strawman… more like just made up stuff.

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[QUOTE=Johnny Canal;161278]There was a notable incident over the lack of Skippy Peanut Butter (required per CBA) on an SUP-crewed ship (either Matson or APL).

Trying to get the name…[/QUOTE]

Most likely a apocryphal story. How would a crew tie up or delay a ship over a beef? Refusing to obey orders? An illegal strike?

In my experience when the crew has a beef they contact the union rep and the rep either calls the company and asks what’s up or he comes down to the ship at payoff. Every single union report I’ve gotten is “no beefs”

Failure to follow orders is likely to result in termination.