Can’t find what I’m looking for so I figured I would ask. I have a third mate unlimited and the person I found to sign my toar off has a 200 ton license master of towing. Is it ok if he signs me off? Thanks in advance
He needs a designated examiner certificate to sign u off.
[QUOTE=NYBoatman;104485]He needs a designated examiner certificate to sign u off.[/QUOTE]
You also need to actually serve on a towing vessel if I am not terribly mistaken
Check the boys out at Diamond Marine in Kingston, NY / Port Ewen up the Hudson River.
Yep. You need 360 days service as an apprentice mate on a tugboat. Before you get your apprentice mate you need 540 days sea time and 360 of which must be on a tug. Its a pain in the ass process… And a long one. Save your $$…
With a 3/M unlimited all he would need on a tug is 30 days observation and training and a completed TOAR for Mate of Towing.
Thats such a bullshit rule.
Call it what you want to call it. Prior to NVIC 4-01 you could run a towing vessel just based on having the appropriate tonnage and route inspected vessel license. No observation and training required whatsoever. A legitimate 30 days is better than that. Plenty of guys in the towing industry today that got in under that and were later grandfathered to MOTV. A few I worked with were idiots a few were some of the best operators I ever worked with. Any license is just a starting point. It is up to the individual to know what they can and can’t handle and the company that hires them should ascertain that as well.
[QUOTE=t.mcg;104438]Can’t find what I’m looking for so I figured I would ask. I have a third mate unlimited and the person I found to sign my toar off has a 200 ton license master of towing. Is it ok if he signs me off? Thanks in advance[/QUOTE]
The TOAR has to be signed by a Coast Guard approved Designated Examiner.
There are very few, if any, “200 ton master of towing” licenses. Most, if not all with tonnage limits are for 100 GRT and are based on the license they were operating towing vessels with before 2001.
[QUOTE=dredgeboater;104493]Call it what you want to call it. Prior to NVIC 4-01 you could run a towing vessel just based on having the appropriate tonnage and route inspected vessel license. No observation and training required whatsoever. A legitimate 30 days is better than that. Plenty of guys in the towing industry today that got in under that and were later grandfathered to MOTV. A few I worked with were idiots a few were some of the best operators I ever worked with. Any license is just a starting point. It is up to the individual to know what they can and can’t handle and the company that hires them should ascertain that as well.[/QUOTE]
The 30 days is a minimum, and a completed TOAR is also required. So the DE that signs a TOAR for an applicant who is not competent would also be implicit in any license issuance. And as you noted, before this ruie, the 30 days wouldn’t have been needed, the same new 3rd Mate could operate a towing vessel on the first day they ever set foot on one.
Or a 500 ton, or 1600 ton.
Absolutely. I was just pointing out the OPs situation
Yep. I part of the 30 day wonder club. I looked into diamond towing. Not a bad outfit but I would rather have someone sign me off rather than paying someone.
[QUOTE=dredgeboater;104490]With a 3/M unlimited all he would need on a tug is 30 days observation and training and a completed TOAR for Mate of Towing.[/QUOTE]
Realistically though, and we’ve discussed this before, he would need to demonstrate the skills noted in the TOAR completely and competently. IMHO, no-one can honestly/realistically complete this kind of training in 30 days. If you’ve acquired a fully completed TOAR in 30 days I’d call bullshit. Again, that’s just my opinion albeit a firmly held belief.
So, if I went from OUTV to MOT, then passed a 100 ton course and got 95% on the sail endorsement without studying, would that make me a MOT WAFI? What license would I get? NMC gives a different answer every time I ask… Do I check the "Raise in grade box? Why isn’t there a tonnage on my MOT? Where does the 200 come from? How can I push around a 1600+ ton barge and the nice lady at NMC says “The barge doesn’t count”… Well it sure as heck counts if you hit something… What’s the logic?
Thanks JD
Cheers
use proper Engrish son…“I am” part
I looked into diamond towing. Not a bad outfit but I would rather have someone sign me off rather than paying someone.
so are you intending on getting this fellow to just sign off your TOAR without actually serving on a towing vessel? That is fraud in my book!
Excuse my English. Auto correct got the best of me. No I don’t expect this guy to just sign me off. I wouldn’t expect that from someone. Ill put my time in
If you are a Master Steam/Motor over 200 GRT, you may operate towing
vessels within any restrictions on your license,
AFTER
30 days of training & observation on towing vessels on a particular
route (90 days for Western Rivers),
AND
Either hold a completed TOAR
or
complete an approved course
.
[QUOTE=NYBoatman;104489]Yep. You need 360 days service as an apprentice mate on a tugboat. Before you get your apprentice mate you need 540 days sea time and 360 of which must be on a tug. Its a pain in the ass process… And a long one. Save your $$…[/QUOTE]
[QUOTE=jdcavo;104504]The 30 days is a minimum, and a completed TOAR is also required. So the DE that signs a TOAR for an applicant who is not competent would also be implicit in any license issuance. And as you noted, before this ruie, the 30 days wouldn’t have been needed, the same new 3rd Mate could operate a towing vessel on the first day they ever set foot on one.[/QUOTE]
Mr Cavo,
Could you expand a little on the term “Implicit”?
I understand a DE is not responsible for a mistake someone makes later on. However, if a DE pencil whips, or as we used to say “gun deck” a TOAR, and that applicant is later to be found incompetent, is the DE in any way responsible? If a Master/Mate of tow has an accident, does the Investigation office of the local Sector ever look at the competence of the mariner? Does the IO office ever review the TOAR of a mariner, to see if it was done properly? Does MMC ever spot check TOARs? By example comparing the TOAR to the vessel’s log.
Here is the reason I ask, I got one of the first (if not the first) 1600-30 day- TOAR- Master of Tow down in the Gulf Coast. I did my TOAR while with Delta Towing out of Houma LA. Delta Towing and Mr Verdin (in charge of license and compliance for Delta) took the TOAR serious. For 40 days, the company carried me on the boat as an extra. Every maneuver the tug did, I was expected to be on the bridge. The company moved me to different tugs just so I do different operations. (Example, both barges, Rig moves and anchor handling) The company got the tugs I was on underway on the company’s time and fuel, simply to train me. Delta’s position was that their tugs were two watch boats; as such the Mate had to be able handle any and everything on their watch. No calling the Captain, the Captain had his own 12 hours to be on watch. So…. after all that was I ready? Not really, but at least I had the basics.
But what seems to be happening with TOARs for years now, is tendency to say “We did not (insert operation such as hipping up to a barge)” so, just sign off, the applicant has done his 30 days. Or leave that section blank, because “We do not do those operations here”
For me, I cannot see how observing someone doing a maneuvering operation one time means someone is competent. In calm weather, perfect conditions, anyone can hip up a barge, it is when things are less than perfect, that experience counts. If I was going to do the 30 day path again, I would find me some dredge scow work, where the barge had to go offshore to dump the spoil. 30 days of 24 hour dredge scow work, would probably make you at least give you the basics
For those whom think that a fully completed TOAR is not that important, I disagree, I was there when they begin recovering the bodies from the AMTRAK accident. I have found almost all new Coast Guard Regulations come about because somebody died. And no, Tug companies do not always make sure the mariner can handle the job. You only have to look at the collusion on the Mississippi River with the Apprentice mate to see that.
Okay….my rant for the year, I will go back to lurking……
Ocean31