Toar

confused on my TOAR. i have completed a TOAR and i was wondering can i submit my TOAR to the uscg and have that TOAR on my license tacked along with my 200T mates license. or do you have to submit a TOAR with a license such as the upgrade from apprentice mate to mat of towing?

Are you a Master of 100 Ton as well? Master 100 - 200 Ton gets you into the backdoor for Mate of Tow Lic. with a TOAR, 30 days time on a tug. Master 500 Ton you submit the TOAR, 30 days on a tug, and you get a Master of Tow.

[QUOTE=brownwater1;95276]confused on my TOAR. i have completed a TOAR and i was wondering can i submit my TOAR to the uscg and have that TOAR on my license tacked along with my 200T mates license. or do you have to submit a TOAR with a license such as the upgrade from apprentice mate to mat of towing?[/QUOTE]

You have to either:

  1. Hold a license as mate or master for not more than 500 GRT or higher, have at least 30 days under observation and training on a towing vessel on each route, and complete a TOAR for each route (by an approved Designated Examiner); or
  2. Show at least 3 years experience as MASTER on vessels of less than 200 GRT, have at least 30 days under observation and training on each route on a towing vessel and and complete a TOAR for each route; or
  3. Have at least 12 months on a towing vessel while HOLDING a license as Apprentice Mate and complete a TOAR.

Options 2 and 3 require you to apply for and be issued a license as Mate of towing vessels and qualify you for MATE of towing vessels. Option qualifies you for mate or master depending on the level of your license for 500 GRT or higher.

If your highest license now is Mate 200 GRT and you do not have Apprentice Mate, you cannot currently qua;ify without either getting Apprentice Mate and 12 months of time on towing vessels, or upgrading to Mate 500 GRT or higher.

Always good to hear J. Cavo’s input. I have 3 questions about this, hope its relevant.

1- Does your 30 days under observation and training have to be on a tow vessel with “towing” on the vessels Document? I have 22 days on a construction tug, moving construction barges around, whose working as a vessel with a “coastwise” endorsement on the Document

2- Does your 30 days under observation and training have to happen AFTER you get your TOAR, or can it be from years prior?

3- Lastly, If I have an Oceans Route for my License (500 Ton Master), do I have to get my 30 days under observation and training on a vessel operating on an Oceans route? Or would a Near Coastal voyage be good? (TOAR is NC/Oceans)

Thanks, as always…Great source of info that I have not been able to dig up elsewhere! (and believe me, Ive looked hard)

[QUOTE=greef;97680]Always good to hear J. Cavo’s input. I have 3 questions about this, hope its relevant.

1- Does your 30 days under observation and training have to be on a tow vessel with “towing” on the vessels Document? I have 22 days on a construction tug, moving construction barges around, whose working as a vessel with a “coastwise” endorsement on the Document

2- Does your 30 days under observation and training have to happen AFTER you get your TOAR, or can it be from years prior?

3- Lastly, If I have an Oceans Route for my License (500 Ton Master), do I have to get my 30 days under observation and training on a vessel operating on an Oceans route? Or would a Near Coastal voyage be good? (TOAR is NC/Oceans)

Thanks, as always…Great source of info that I have not been able to dig up elsewhere! (and believe me, Ive looked hard)[/QUOTE]

  1. It needs to be a towing vessel. If its COD lists it as one, then it is likely OK. If it doesn’t, other factors will be considered. If its manning doesn’t require the master and mate to have towing licenses, then it probably won’t be considered as a towing vessel.

  2. Ideally, the TOAR is done while getting the minimum of 30 days of service on a towing vessel. It will be viewed with a lot of skepticism if the TOAR was done before your service on a toweing vessel (which answers the second part of the question).

  3. Your towing license would be for the for the route you got the tiime on and did the TOAR, as you need 30 days on the route. If your 500 Ton license is oceans, but your time on a towing vesel is near coastal, your towing vessel authority and/or the towing license would be for near coastal. But since the TOAR is for both NC and oceans, you can get authority for and/or upgrade to oceans with 30 days under observation and training on oceans routes.

Also, if you hold a towing license as Master, you can get Mate of Towiing Vessels for a superior route by passing the exam for that route (no TOAR). So if your time is on near coastal, and you’re willing to take an exam, apply for both Master of Towing Near Coastal and Mate of Towing Oceans. This will let you get the oceans time you need while working as Mate.

[QUOTE=“jdcavo;97732”]

  1. It needs to be a towing vessel. If its COD lists it as one, then it is likely OK. If it doesn’t, other factors will be considered. If its manning doesn’t require the master and mate to have towing licenses, then it probably won’t be considered as a towing vessel.

  2. Ideally, the TOAR is done while getting the minimum of 30 days of service on a towing vessel. It will be viewed with a lot of skepticism if the TOAR was done before your service on a toweing vessel (which answers the second part of the question).

  3. Your towing license would be for the for the route you got the tiime on and did the TOAR, as you need 30 days on the route. If your 500 Ton license is oceans, but your time on a towing vesel is near coastal, your towing vessel authority and/or the towing license would be for near coastal. But since the TOAR is for both NC and oceans, you can get authority for and/or upgrade to oceans with 30 days under observation and training on oceans routes.

Also, if you hold a towing license as Master, you can get Mate of Towiing Vessels for a superior route by passing the exam for that route (no TOAR). So if your time is on near coastal, and you’re willing to take an exam, apply for both Master of Towing Near Coastal and Mate of Towing Oceans. This will let you get the oceans time you need while working as Mate.[/QUOTE]

Mr Cavo,

My question to you is If I was to attend Diamond marine services class in NYC and get my toar signed off at theyre class then get my 30 days observation done in LA/LB the TOAR will not be accepted because I did not get the TOAR signed off in Los angeles while doing my observation there? Thanks for your time

You wont have any problem with the 30 days. it states nowhere that the 30 days of observation must be before or after your toar therefore 30 days is 30 days. Within the five year recency rule i suspect.
Good Luck

[QUOTE=MIKEZ76SP;97733]Mr Cavo,

My question to you is If I was to attend Diamond marine services class in NYC and get my toar signed off at theyre class then get my 30 days observation done in LA/LB the TOAR will not be accepted because I did not get the TOAR signed off in Los angeles while doing my observation there? Thanks for your time[/QUOTE]

The “skepticism” I referred to is over how you can complete a TOAR without being on a towing vessel. Having done as part of a course or program is a reasonable explanation.

Mr. Cavo,

I appreciate your input.

What if we have a DE come to our company and perform a TOAR for 1 or 2 of us, and our previous “Training and Observation time” was done on a tow vessel that will not suffice for the rule? (ie- we need to now get the 30 days on a towing vessel which will cover our route,etc.)

This would be similar to what Diamond marine does, as there, in both cases, would be a DE signing off the checklist in a day or 2 of training. (Although, Diamond Marine doesnt fill out 100% of the TOAR)

Again, thanks for the info., want to get it straight.

  1. It needs to be a towing vessel. If its COD lists it as one, then it is likely OK. If it doesn’t, other factors will be considered. If its manning doesn’t require the master and mate to have towing licenses, then it probably won’t be considered as a towing vessel.

Another question,

What if Training and observation were done on an uninspected tow vessel with “coastwise” on the Doc. with only a Master of Tow on board? I worked for a brief hitch on a construction tug <60’ doing tow boat work where only a master of tow and a deckhand/mate (myself) were required. This was back in 2002.

I have 22 days on that boat, if I get my TOAR with a DE coming to our company to do the checklist, cant I just get some more time to fulfill the requirement on another vessel?

Thanks again!

[QUOTE=jdcavo;97766]The “skepticism” I referred to is over how you can complete a TOAR without being on a towing vessel. Having done as part of a course or program is a reasonable explanation.[/QUOTE]

Another question, (coffee is kkkicking)

What if Training and observation were done on an uninspected tow vessel with “coastwise” on the Doc. with only a Master of Tow on board? I worked for a brief hitch on a construction tug <60’ doing tow boat work where only a master of tow and a deckhand/mate (myself) were required. This was back in 2002.

I have 22 days on that boat, if I get my TOAR with a DE coming to our company to do the checklist, cant I just get some more time to fulfill the requirement on another vessel?

Thanks again!

I checked with the Vessel Doc. search site, and , in fact, the vessel I worked on WAS listed as a Towing vessel.

Can the time I served on that vessel (back in 2002) take care of the “observation and training” requirement?

I am searching for this route as some of the employers I am trying to work for require me to already have either a MOTV or a TOAR, they will not/can not provide one.

I am sure that a whole lot of other Mariners are in the same boat, so to speak…

Many more thanks!

As I said before 30 days is 30 days before or after completion of the TOAR is irrelevant. However 2002 was more then five years ago therefore is more than likely void for recency.

I highly doubt they will count that time for training and observation. To quote jdcavo in a post from a while back,

“Qualifying” sea service is service that meets the requirements for the endorsement. The recent service has to be among the sea service you used for the endorsement. If the service requirements for the endorsement allow you to use different types of sea service, the recent service has to be of one or more of the accepted types (any type).

[QUOTE=CurryAK;97826]As I said before 30 days is 30 days before or after completion of the TOAR is irrelevant. However 2002 was more then five years ago therefore is more than likely void for recency.[/QUOTE]

Recency is an issue and may be a problem. Also, take a look at the requirements to renew a towing vessel license without recent experience on a towing vessel and consider how that might apply to this situation.

We haven’t had this question before, and I can’t respond as I’m not going to set policy by a post here. Also, there is a good chance this question might end up in my ofice on appeal and I cannot prejudice any future appeal by pre-deciding it here, especially without all relevant information. .

As the question from Greef points out: This is one of the ignominies of the TOAR system as it currently exists. Someone can ‘reasonably’ expect to get ‘signed off’. ( of course for a fee) in a day or two, and then go scrub up 30 days on a little work scow shoving pilings around and be legal. The ORIGINAL intent of the TOAR program was to require ONE YEAR to get a TOAR. My how things change!

@Greef: It all depends upon how your ‘Sea Service’ letters are written. You state you have 22 days from 2004. So you only need 8 more. If you can get back with that outfit, do a couple weeks, and have them write a sea service letter current to the most recent time. Problem solved. However, from the size vessel you are talking about you will get a 100 ton and inland restriction.

Cappy208,

Thanks for the input! We did work inside and outside the Demarc. lines daily when I was working on the tug, so NC route shouldnt be an issue. Maybe your suggestion would take care of the recency? Not a bad idea. It is a pain when your in my situation, where you work for a company that doesnt have any “towing” vessels and wish to work for a company that tows who cant sign off your TOAR, and wont hire until you have one…

Again, I understand my situation, and in no means am dreaming of joining a tow company and instantly becoming Master of a 190 Ton wire boat delivering oil barges around the country without years and years of experience. I also know that this “30 day wonder” route doesnt tell a company that I am an old Tow boat salt, able to take one of their vessels towing down the road without hitting anything, and a TOAR and 30 days observation is essentially a “learners permit” for me.

However, given my situation, I am just trying to figure out what exactly I need to do within the scope of law, which seems to be not so easy in this case. It should be a black and white deal, that is, rules that make it a cut and dry situation. Maybe some of the CFRs need a tune up…

Thanks!

Also, Mr. Cavo,

Thanks again for your advice/wisdom!

As for recency, I looked at 46 CFR 10.202 (e), which states:

(e) The applicant for any original license, endorsement, or raise of grade of license must have at least three months’ qualifying service on vessels of appropriate tonnage or horsepower within the three years immediately preceding the date of application.

How does that translate to a 30 day training period, when only 30 days are needed? It clearly states “3 months within 3 years”, which to me, is cut and dry when applying for a "new " endorsement. Unless the Master 500 GRT + TOAR + 30 days training and observation eliminates the recency requirement, as it is a unique situation?

I guess, once I get my TOAR (which may have to be from a DE locally, or visiting a company like Diamond Towing) I guess I can just apply and see what the NMC evaluator says about my time. Then, it is what it is, and I’ll make do.

Thanks!

[QUOTE=cappy208;97876]…However, from the size vessel you are talking about you will get a 100 ton and inland restriction.[/QUOTE]

He shouldn’t get a tonnage restriction. He’s getting the endorsement based on having a Master 500 GRT license. The only restrictions to 100 GRT are for mariners who were grandfathered to the towing vessel license based on a license prior to 2001 that was redistricted to 100 GRT. Mariners qualifying under the current regulations do not get any tonnage restrictions (apart from the inherent restriction on near coastal/oceans. ( I avoided saying what that limit is to avoid re-opening that discussion)