Columbia River Bar Pilots and the Columbia River Pilots

“seems to be conflicting ideas of “top of profession” to the average joe like me. I’d think a 747 pilot is at the top of his profession (20 years to get there?). A heart surgeon (15-20 before he is operating on his own)…but 4-5 for a pilot???”

You may get pilot training in 4-5 years, but you’re not going to get that Unlimited Master ticket “without setting foot on a ship.”

It seems to me that your remark confuses the “minimum standard” Federal Pilot with the state licensed pilot. It is the latter that the APA describes as at the top of their profession. The Columbia River Bar and River Pilots I’ve met are all mid-career or later and comparable in time on the job and training to senior airline pilots. One of the additional limits on the Bar Pilot’s working life has been the fitness to be able to safely do that transfer on an active bar with 12’+ swells starting to break! Fortunately for all concerned, they’re now doing a lot of those by helo which still requires some rope ladder acrobatics but at least over the deck!

Sometimes, yes

US flag ships sailing “on register” are required to take state pilots.

How many Federal Associations are there, actually? Only 2 that I know of that are viable. Associated Federal Pilots and Docking Masters of Lousiana, and the Chesapeake and Interstate Pilots.

Some others have been tried here and there but have all failed. Anybody know of any other viable ones?

I was told some guys tried to start one in Jacksonville years ago but were run out of town. And some years ago a gentleman tried to start one serving Lake Charles, Port Arthur and Houston/Gal/Tex but I think he fell by the wayside as well.

Southport Federal Pilots in North Carolina

All three pilot associations on the Great Lakes are considered Federal Pilots.

They are regulated and restricted as the only viable pilot organization for traffic in those states, so I’d don’t think they are very much like the other Federal associations.

Did you not see the posts above? There are several state pilot organizations with active pilots that are not masters…and some may not have a license at all.

Shitttttt… my favorite Virginia pilot was on the sailing team at old dominion.

“It ain’t what ya know, it’s who ya know!”

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I’m only familiar with the Pilot regs & reqs in Oregon, which requires an Unlimited Master’s license and a minimum of 2 recent years as master of a vessel over 500 tons. I assumed when I read that page of the APA that what they were describing was essentially similar in other states. But reading it closer (pasted below), I have to agree with you that there’s some wiggle room in that description that might produce some “4 year wonders” in SOME state (it doesn’t say which has the 4 yr. requirement). So, I’ll modify my statement to say that I’m quite confident that the Columbia River Pilot who ends up on your bridge is a long way from “never having set foot on a ship” and is, rather, a pretty well trained and seasoned captain in his own right.

(from the APA website describing State Pilot qualifications in the aggregate; I can understand how a few of the 50 states, like maybe Kansas, could get by with the low end)

Training and Prior Experience Requirements
The typical state-licensed pilot in the U.S. is the most highly trained mariner in the world. Pilots have either extensive deep-sea or tug experience before they enter pilot training programs or they go through a lengthy (four to seven years) apprenticeship program. In addition to extensive prior experience or detailed instruction in basic shiphandling, pilot trainees undergo long periods of route specific training under the guidance of experienced pilots. This hands-on training is supplemented with the latest in classroom instruction and simulator training. Once a pilot receives a license, he or she undergoes regular continuing training, including training in bridge resource management for pilots, emergency shiphandling, and new navigation technology, as well as other types of instruction and practice on full mission bridge simulators and manned models. Each state pilot is expected to be comfortable with the latest in navigation technology and ships’ systems.

There are a number of organizations that will train from the ground up with no prior maritime experience.

Columbia River “Bar” Pilots are seasoned Unlimited Masters with at least 2 years in Command of vessels over 5000 tons.

Columbia River Pilots are predominantly Push Boat/Tug Masters with at least 5 years running the river system there…Columbia, Willamette etc…lots of ex-Foss among the River Pilots

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The river pilots have way better sea stories.

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For sure…and the run from Astoria to Portland gives you plenty of time to get acquainted

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Yes, but when you say that an individual is being trained “from the ground up” by the Pilots, isn’t it safe to say the training he needs is the training he is getting? Over likely as many years as some other pilots elsewhere?

Training in each individual port is unique to that port and group. One size does not fit all. I would suggest everyone consider the actual details of any training program by any pilot group as likely being the best that can be provided, by the people that should know what they are doing, for the individuals that are in the training program.

Finally, lets not forget that nearly every state pilot group has to answer to some type of regulating authority which includes oversight of any training program.

This is a sore subject to many of those who do not understand the history of pilotage around the world, much less the USA. Yes, precisely, State Pilotage is a regulated monopoly like any other regulated industry in your state. I could spend all morning writing about this. But won’t.

I would ask you to consider this; a State Pilot performs a service that is at first and foremost, for the purposes of safety. For the port he/she is at. For the ship and crew he/she is on. For the environment where he/she works.

Like the fire department you call in the middle of the night to come to your home in an emergency, you want to make one phone call. You know the best guys in town will show up with the best gear and equipment and trained firefighters that your town/city was willing to budget for. You know with one phone call, they will be there in minutes and no questions asked about price, availability, and qualifications or equipment being used. Its a system that is as pure and simple as it should be.

Same thing for pilotage. One phone call to our dispatcher by a vessel’s agent or owner and the service is secured. No need to worry.

The “price” of this service is regulated and negotiated routinely by the Pilotage group, industry, and regulators. Just as any regulated industry in the US. Pilots don’t charge whatever they want. Their rate hearings are usually open to the public and always provide for opposing testimony by industry, if needed.

I’ve been working as a State Pilot for over 25 years in Hawaii. When I started there already had been two competitive pilot groups here working for many years. We were one of three areas in the USA where competition was alive and well, as some people seem to think was a good thing. It ain’t, trust me.

“If the rates are regulated, then how can there be competition??” Great question! If we are charging the same price, how does one pilot group get the job over another? Simple. An agent or owner will call each group and ask “How many tugs will you use on my ship arriving tonight?” I will answer two tugs, as that is the safe way to do the job. The owner hangs up and calls the other pilot group. He says “I’ll hire you to do my ship tonight if you can do the job with ONE tug.” THAT pilot says, “uh, yea, okay.”

It all comes down to safety and yes…saving money. THAT is the difference between one group competing against another in the “regulated rate” environment.

That system sucked. And everybody agreed. The only people who benefitted from that were shipowners far, far away from where I work and live, my port. Accidents happen. The happen more often when you cut corners.

After many years, the two pilot groups finally negotiated an agreement and combined into one group. Since then, our waterfront is a much better place to work and the working environment a safer one.

Competition in a system that is founded on providing a service where safety lays at the foundation, does not serve the best interest of the public. It never has in history. It never will in the future.

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The arrangement for a “Harbor (or Bar) Pilot” and a separate “Docking Pilot” is unique to a very few ports and should be considered the exception, not the rule.

Far more ports have the same individual do both jobs as needed.

I think you are reaching pretty far here. Nearly all rescue personal are government employees. Nearly all pilot organizations are private businesses.

And when I show up at a hospital and need emergency open heart surgery, I get a licensed and board certified surgeon that I don’t need to worry about. Yet he does not have a legal monopoly. Oh, and though he likely works significantly more hours, he probably makes the same amount of money per year as an average harbor pilot (and probably has spent significantly more time and money in education/training).

Is it not true that federal pilots lacking state a license regularly bring US flagged ships into port safety, including Hawaii?

I’m not trying to shit on pilots. I think the job is truly fascinating and would love to be one. But I’m not a ship driver, and being over 3 decades old, likely too old to start the process. I don’t feel it’s obtuse to ask the questions.

I don’t think it’s as “few” as you think. AFAIK it used to be the SOP and some state agencies started merging the docking pilots in. Personally I trust actual docking pilots a lot more than river pilots that think they can also dock ships.

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