AMO Moving Forward

Professional Mariner Forum
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So the election is over and I’m waiting to see a solid platform develop from the Doell/Murdock team. How will AMO move forward from this point? Does anyone here have suggestions on improvements?

[B]Please keep it aboard board! Too many times these threads degrade into mug slinging garbage that benefits nobody.
[/B]
These are critical times for AMO…the membership continues to shrink and the financial issues seem to be getting deeper, I dread to imagine what will be uncovered come January when the new administration gets to review the books.

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so I’ll answer a question with another…how do you feel about all the remainder of the executive board staying in their positions?

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[QUOTE=mariner173;150035]So the election is over and I’m waiting to see a solid platform develop from the Doell/Murdock team. How will AMO move forward from this point? Does anyone here have suggestions on improvements?

[B]Please keep it aboard board! Too many times these threads degrade into mug slinging garbage that benefits nobody.
[/B]
These are critical times for AMO…the membership continues to shrink and the financial issues seem to be getting deeper, I dread to imagine what will be uncovered come January when the new administration gets to review the books.[/QUOTE]

Well I would start with more representation during contract talks. They have some contracts that have a Captain or Chief sitting at the table. A fair amount of contract talks don’t have anyone from the ship there.

I do NOT want to ever have to sit at a union hall. That would be one change that I could not tolerate.

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The sit in the union hall and waste all your time off thing is a holdover from the pre-telephone era.

In these days of websites, cell phones, and texting, there is no reason to even have union halls, much less be required to sit in them.

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[QUOTE=c.captain;150036]so I’ll answer a question with another…how do you feel about all the remainder of the executive board staying in their positions?[/QUOTE]

Rome was not built in a day and I’ll take some change over the status quo that did not benefit the majority but rather the approx. 200 or so buyout people that continue to hold down the top seagoing positions.

Considering Doell himself pointed out the reduction in seagoing jobs I would recommend the shipping rules be make so that a person with a buyout would have to sail “Off the Board” and not be able to hold a permanent position. They made their big buyout where the majority did not, how is it fair that they continue to hold down the top positions gaining the largest contributions to a second pension while the majority remain the step and fetch working stiffs? Without such meaningful changes this union will continue to bleed membership as people see no advancement abilities and move on to fields where they can earn top dollar and advancements.

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[QUOTE=tugsailor;150040]The sit in the union hall and waste all your time off thing is a holdover from the pre-telephone era.

In these days of websites, cell phones, and texting, there is no reason to even have union halls, much less be required to sit in them.[/QUOTE]

AMO does not use a hall system

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[QUOTE=tugsailor;150040]The sit in the union hall and waste all your time off thing is a holdover from the pre-telephone era.

In these days of websites, cell phones, and texting, there is no reason to even have union halls, much less be required to sit in them.[/QUOTE]

I know and AMO doesn’t do it but many unions still do. I wouldn’t want to become like the other unions that are stuck in the 1930’s.

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[QUOTE=mariner173;150041]Rome was not built in a day and I’ll take some change over the status quo that did not benefit the majority but rather the approx. 200 or so buyout people that continue to hold down the top seagoing positions.

Considering Doell himself pointed out the reduction in seagoing jobs I would recommend the shipping rules be make so that a person with a buyout would have to sail “Off the Board” and not be able to hold a permanent position. They made their big buyout where the majority did not, how is it fair that they continue to hold down the top positions gaining the largest contributions to a second pension while the majority remain the step and fetch working stiffs? Without such meaningful changes this union will continue to bleed membership as people see no advancement abilities and move on to fields where they can earn top dollar and advancements.[/QUOTE]

agreed entirely that the buyout babies need to go the FUCK away and never return…they took a lump sum retirement now they need to be retired for good!

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[QUOTE=RespectMyAuthority;150044]I know and AMO doesn’t do it but many unions still do. I wouldn’t want to become like the other unions that are [B]stuck in the 1930’s[/B].[/QUOTE]

some methods / practices might be, but not our deep sea pay scales.

anyone here can begrudge an MMP/MEBA style system, but at least those two places give you the ability to challenge someone’s status in person or even the dispatcher if need be during job call. Pretty hard to do either of those over a phone, let alone verify someone’s credentials. If shipping unions can’t do anything else right, at minimum they have to ensure the mariner is properly certified/credentialed/trained with originals in hand before dispatching them.

i can’t speak for MEBA, but MMP membership has shot down “e-shipping” or telephone shipping repeatedly because of those very reasons. I’m sure that will continue, and the 1930’s style system will continue to reward the hungriest young mates whom are willing to drive to union halls, sleep in cars, night mate endlessly, etc.

Don’t want to live near an active hall or unwilling to come down, get a hotel for a bit, do some night mating? Then don’t go to sea.

If AMO had ever secured night mate and night hawk clauses (if it was true a bazillion yearrs ago, my mistake) you guys might feel different about shipping out of the hall.

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Yeah, you do what you have to, especially when you’re young. Somehow traveling around the country, sleeping in cars, and hanging around in union halls, for weeks on end to hunt for a job doesn’t sound like much of a lifestyle to me.

It used to be that we had a lot of union boys sailing non-union (which union rules forbid) on tugs to make ends meet while they let their shipping cards age before going to hang out at the union hall, but I have not seen those guys in recent years.

The headhunters all manage to vet mariner’s credentials and training without the mariner ever needing to go to their office. I don’t see why it should be any different for a union.

If the unions weren’t so dishonest, giving plumb jobs to the fair-haired boys, and selling jobs for cash, then there would be no need for anyone to be at the hall challenging anyone else’s status. With an e-shipping system it would be much easier to track members credentials, status, and the shipping jobs. The system could be designed so that it would rank the mariners with all the proper criteria, and so that it would not allow dispatchers to play favorites or sell jobs. Someone must be benefiting from the antiquated and expensive union hall system. I wonder who that is? I doubt its the mariners, especially not the mariners sleeping in their cars hundreds of miles from home.

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[QUOTE=tugsailor;150058]Yeah, you do what you have to, especially when you’re young. Somehow traveling around the country, sleeping in cars, and hanging around in union halls, for weeks on end to hunt for a job doesn’t sound like much of a lifestyle to me.

It used to be that we had a lot of union boys sailing non-union (which union rules forbid) on tugs to make ends meet while they let their shipping cards age before going to hang out at the union hall, but I have not seen those guys in recent years.

The headhunters all manage to vet mariner’s credentials and training without the mariner ever needing to go to their office. I don’t see why it should be any different for a union.

If the unions weren’t so dishonest, giving plumb jobs to the fair-haired boys, and selling jobs for cash, then there would be no need for anyone to be at the hall challenging anyone else’s status. With an e-shipping system it would be much easier to track members credentials, status, and the shipping jobs. The system could be designed so that it would rank the mariners with all the proper criteria, and so that it would not allow dispatchers to play favorites or sell jobs. Someone must be benefiting from the antiquated and expensive union hall system. I wonder who that is? I doubt its the mariners, especially not the mariners sleeping in their cars hundreds of miles from home.[/QUOTE]

No telephone or E shipping is going to prevent dispatchers from playing favorites if they choose to do so.

We’re talking about shipping, not tug boating. All those aspects of shipping that don’t seem like much of lifestyle to you have been around for a long time. Those aspects also give mariners options to ship out of different regions at their discretion. Telephone and E shipping are not going to reinvent the wheel. It ain’t broke so don’t try to fix it. Union halls are not that expensive, and they serve a purpose to keep members connected to HQ and each other.

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A few reasons why I left, and what needs to change before I consider going back (in a few years, when salary is not so important).

  1. Buyout members ship rotary, off the board. Impose penalties on the member and company if this is violated. Five-figure fines and loss of shipping rights for one year would help.

  2. Shipping from the hall via modern technology (e-shipping, as quoted above). Yes, it is possible to build a platform where members can log in and see what jobs are available, bid on them, all while being transparent, with certain details of all registrants visible (time in union, license held, etc.) I can go to the USCG/NMC website and verify credentials with a Document Number. Someone taking a 1st’s job when they only have a 2nd’s license is something I’ve never seen.

  3. Stop penalizing existing members with reduced rates in the DC Plan. New members get 100%, employment with some companies is eligible for 100% - everyone should get 100%. If existing buyout holders (or 20 year guys still working) are omitted from the DC Plan, the money will be there. The worthless “pension” scheme in place now is why most of us left (second to the pay increase, anyway).

  4. Negotiate more “health and welfare” conditions in contracts. Those of us working offshore know the benefits of being able to call home, internet access, and shorter rotations. We can argue the pros and cons here, but asking someone with a family to go to sea for 120 days is a lot. Yes, a tanker company could not afford the SatCom bill of a drillship, but everyone could compromise on a working system. Small things like calling home and checking email works wonders for crew morale.

I do miss working on the commercial ships. The smaller crew, everyone got along (or at least had professional respect for each other), the professionalism in general, and the variety of sailing will trump working offshore any day. That said, when a 3rd Engineer earns more than any AMO C/E, it makes it hard for anyone go back.

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[QUOTE=tugsailor;150058]Yeah, you do what you have to, especially when you’re young. Somehow traveling around the country, sleeping in cars, and hanging around in union halls, for weeks on end to hunt for a job doesn’t sound like much of a lifestyle to me.

It used to be that we had a lot of union boys sailing non-union (which union rules forbid) on tugs to make ends meet while they let their shipping cards age before going to hang out at the union hall, but I have not seen those guys in recent years.

The headhunters all manage to vet mariner’s credentials and training without the mariner ever needing to go to their office. I don’t see why it should be any different for a union.

If the unions weren’t so dishonest, giving plumb jobs to the fair-haired boys, and selling jobs for cash, then there would be no need for anyone to be at the hall challenging anyone else’s status. With an e-shipping system it would be much easier to track members credentials, status, and the shipping jobs. The system could be designed so that it would rank the mariners with all the proper criteria, and so that it would not allow dispatchers to play favorites or sell jobs. Someone must be benefiting from the antiquated and expensive union hall system. I wonder who that is? I doubt its the mariners, especially not the mariners sleeping in their cars hundreds of miles from home.[/QUOTE]

I’m in favor of e-shipping.
Been a member of MM&P for 27 years and seen a lot of misuse of the antiquated shipping procedures of yesteryear. I guess it worked pretty good when there was a tanker fleet, and many different shipping companies with break/bulk ships, followed by the container ship boom. Now MM&P is down to roughly 150 rotary jobs shipped “off the board”. This is a nationwide count. Anyone with better numbers please feel free to respond. This number does not count permanent chief mates and masters, as once they obtain permanent status with a company, they no longer are concerned with “union hall shipping”.
To appease the few diehards that demand the union hall stay open, come in and click away. Click from home or go the hall and click.
I believe a system to check credentials, status, etc… could be easily implemented. It would take an effort and expense by the leadership to undertake such a task, something they seem unwilling to do.
As far as cost of maintaining the union halls, I believe it is considerable. All for 150 rotary jobs, seems kind of wasteful to me.
Traveling long distances, with hotel/food/car rental expenses on the hopes of obtaining an assignment is to me a royal pain in the ass. Once I was in Long Beach with an 8 month card, only to have member after member fly in with a better card to beat me out of every job that appeared on the board. 6 fucking weeks I was in that port before I secured a berth.
After 38 years of this (11 with SIU, 27 with MMP), and with the ever shrinking job base, I think e-shipping is good solution.
Then again, if MM&P and AMO could form a merger…

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[QUOTE=RichM;150076]I’m in favor of e-shipping.
Been a member of MM&P for 27 years and seen a lot of misuse of the antiquated shipping procedures of yesteryear. I guess it worked pretty good when there was a tanker fleet, and many different shipping companies with break/bulk ships, followed by the container ship boom. Now MM&P is down to roughly 150 rotary jobs shipped “off the board”. This is a nationwide count. Anyone with better numbers please feel free to respond. This number does not count permanent chief mates and masters, as once they obtain permanent status with a company, they no longer are concerned with “union hall shipping”.
To appease the few diehards that demand the union hall stay open, come in and click away. Click from home or go the hall and click.
I believe a system to check credentials, status, etc… could be easily implemented. It would take an effort and expense by the leadership to undertake such a task, something they seem unwilling to do.
As far as cost of maintaining the union halls, I believe it is considerable. All for 150 rotary jobs, seems kind of wasteful to me.
Traveling long distances, with hotel/food/car rental expenses on the hopes of obtaining an assignment is to me a royal pain in the ass. Once I was in Long Beach with an 8 month card, only to have member after member fly in with a better card to beat me out of every job that appeared on the board. 6 fucking weeks I was in that port before I secured a berth.
After 38 years of this (11 with SIU, 27 with MMP), and with the ever shrinking job base, I think e-shipping is good solution.
[U][B]Then again, if MM&P and AMO could form a merger[/B][/U]…[/QUOTE]

NO FUCKING WAY. Sorry there isn’t a more polite way to say that.

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Oh yes, fucking way. Missionary position with MMP on top.

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[QUOTE=RichM;150085]Oh yes, fucking way. Missionary position with MMP on top.[/QUOTE]

as horrible the thought of it, there is sense in consolidation but for it really to have effect it would require D1 MEBA to also be merged into one single union to represent all officers with one single contract for all the members. No longer the dream full contract ships which only a select few get to sail on and all the special contract vessels for all the remaining unwashed ones.

of course,with all the pension plans being fucked up, there is no way to ever make this reality…

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[QUOTE=c.captain;150087]as horrible the thought of it, there is sense in consolidation but for it really to have effect it would require D1 MEBA to also be merged into one single union to represent all officers with one single contract for all the members. No longer the dream full contract ships which only a select few get to sail on and all the special contract vessels for all the remaining unwashed ones.

of course,with all the pension plans being fucked up, there is no way to ever make this reality…[/QUOTE]

and gee, CC, how does one get to be one of those of “select few” who get to work the full contract box boats? by doing all those shitty things that happen along the way from applicant to “A” book or its MEBA equivalent.
even SIU, MFOW, and SUP have a similar, if not tougher system. you get what you’ve WORKED FOR in the AMO… pay money = membership.

The unwashed ones got what their “leadership” negotiated for… AMO’s existence is nothing more than to underbid MMP/MEBA and in the process drive down all deep sea wages.

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I knew this would ruffle feathers.
One union, one contract.
Say it loud!!
One union ,one contract!!

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[QUOTE=RichM;150095]I knew this would ruffle feathers.
One union, one contract.
Say it loud!!
One union ,one contract!![/QUOTE]
Have you had to pee in the cup lately?

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[QUOTE=RichM;150095]I knew this would ruffle feathers.
One union, one contract.
Say it loud!!
One union ,one contract!![/QUOTE]

Exactly what is needed. One union for officers like “The Guild” in Canada. For years the maritime unions have been underbidding each other in a race to the bottom for the mariner — for the enrichment of union “leadership.”

If it is true that the MMP only has 150 rotary jobs, its just a tiny, irrelevant, deadman walking.

I agree that the primary purpose of AMO is kill off MMP and MEBA at the expense of mariners while making a tidy profit for union leadership. If MMP only has 150 rotary jobs, it appears that AMO has nearly succeeded in killing off MMP.