Academy Kids vs Hawsepipers

The never ending arguement over KP vs State Academy’s is in full swing on other threads. One of the posters mentioned the arguement is very similar to the Hawspiper vs Academy kid rub.

Got me wondering - How strong is the resentment of Hawspipers towards Academy kids? As a second year cadet, it’s no secret I personify 'Greenhorn", I get that. Respect has to be earned - I get that too.

Do hawspipers generally regard academy greenhorns as “educated dumbasses”? Will I be sent to the bow to untangle the line of sight?

I have a fairly thick skin and can dish it out as well as take it. That said, I’ll be working my first commercial assignement this summer. Any tips from the old timers for this FNG?

Learn how to safely and effectively operate a mop; not too much soap, actually about 1/8th the amount you’d like to use. And keep it dry, not dripping wet. That’s about where you need to start. PROFICIENCY in Coffee Pot Operation too (P-C-P-O). A cadet that has a hot cup of coffee just the way i like it sitting on the table when i wake up is a man bound for success.

The ultimate thing is if the captain/chief/deckhand/whatever asks you to go do something, and says “you know how to do that, right?” Your answer isn’t YES SIR I KNOW HOW TO!!! Its YES i can do that, just (insert intelligent question on specifically how they want it done if you have any doubt). That shows you aren’t a know-it-all academy squid (been there, done that), that you are paying attention, and that you want TO LEARN. Be up, if it takes being up on your off watch when the AB or whoever splices a 12x12 new line, or does something you haven’t done before or won’t learn in school.

Cook a meal or two if you guys eat onboard. Keep your head in the game, be listening to the radio repeater, if someone calls on the VHF and the capt is in the head pick up the mic and say “the whatever back, standby one” …never forget how dumb i felt my first time i was too afraid to answer.

Don’t be the guy saying ‘yeah i know yeah i know’

Bring dirty clothes. Work gloves. Knife. Flashlight. Notepad and pen. Unless you normally would on that type of vessel you dont have carry it around but make sure you have it.

Exactly right, Z-Drive. Best advice is to keep your head down, listen and take it all in. Be prepared to do what is asked without any whining or whimpering. Make any task given the most important thing that you are doing, and don’t be afraid to ask questions. You might even be given a snipe hunt or two. If you know it IS one, play along a little. If you don’t, just do what you can. It will make for some good stories later, and work as a right of passage. In my time at sea, I have run across both hawsepipers and academy grads that weren’t worth the money spent on their salaries; and by the same token, I have run across hawsepipers and academy grads that I still consider friends and fine seamen/engineers to boot. It is more about the man (or woman) than it is where they have come from.

I agree with Z-Drive, however I need to add that you will F-UP. Man up and say you did. You will be corrected, most likely harshly, but if you make it a learning experience and take it to mind not to heart you will earn respect and people will be willing to take the time to teach you. I hate green third mates excuses, they make me more than a little crazy. If I give you a letter of warning, then you need excuses, not until then. Same goes for cadets, only more so.
As for your other questions, I’m a Maine grad and I’ve never been looked down on by any hawsepipers, or up to for that matter, but I’ve always felt we have a lot to learn from each other.

Resentment? That’s rich.

Try “annoyed with” or “worried about” due to confidence and arrogance in proportion to their levels of inexperience. The good ones are the ones who learn, listen and in the end make less mistakes by asking “dumb” questions of their shipmates irregardless of rank or rate.

Your word choice gives us insight as to which you’ll be.

[QUOTE=steeltoesonplanes;109174]I agree with Z-Drive, however I need to add that you will F-UP. Man up and say you did. You will be corrected, most likely harshly, but if you make it a learning experience and take it to mind not to heart you will earn respect and people will be willing to take the time to teach you. I hate green third mates excuses, they make me more than a little crazy. If I give you a letter of warning, then you need excuses, not until then. Same goes for cadets, only more so.
As for your other questions, I’m a Maine grad and I’ve never been looked down on by any hawsepipers, or up to for that matter, but I’ve always felt we have a lot to learn from each other.[/QUOTE]

One of the best engineers that I ever sailed with was a hawsepiper, and got the job because he was my relief’s bartender. His first trip with me, he didn’t really show much initiative. He did just what was asked, but after 30 days, didn’t know the basic piping onboard, so I did not recommend his return. I was overruled by the office, and the next trip, he was a changed individual. In short order, he knew the plant as well as I did. We ended up becoming friends, and I even recommended him as my replacement when I left Belcher (yeah, but he knew what he was getting into). The last time I saw him he was sailing 2nd engineer on an Overseas bulker, and I understand that he now has his Unlimited Chief’s License.

Seen the best and worst of both. The best are the ones that give a shit about their job and want to learn more and hustle on deck.

[QUOTE=DeckApe;109176]Resentment? That’s rich.

Try “annoyed with” or “worried about” due to confidence and arrogance in proportion to their levels of inexperience. The good ones are the ones who learn, listen and in the end make less mistakes by asking “dumb” questions of their shipmates irregardless of rank or rate.

Your word choice gives us insight as to which you’ll be.[/QUOTE]

Point taken - resentment was poor choice of word. Was thinking the salts might resent (or be annoyed) having to take the time to train and show the new swabs everything - that’s all I meant.

Arrogance will not be an issue either. Not by this FNG anyway. I will be busting a sweat just trying not to F up.

[QUOTE=“DeckApe;109176”]Resentment? That’s rich.

Try “annoyed with” or “worried about” due to confidence and arrogance in proportion to their levels of inexperience.[/QUOTE]

That’s not always true. I have seen outright resentment for academy graduates among some hawsepipers.

[QUOTE=“Jetryder223;109179”]

Point taken - resentment was poor choice of word. Was thinking the salts might resent (or be annoyed) having to take the time to train and show the new swabs everything - that’s all I meant.
.[/QUOTE]

I think you will find that most mariners enjoy sharing their knowledge with a respectful cadet who asks intelligent questions at appropriate times. For example, wait until the ship is all fast before you ask the Capt why he needed 2 tugs.

[QUOTE=Capt. Phoenix;109181]That’s not always true. I have seen outright resentment for academy graduates among some hawsepipers.[/QUOTE]

I remember one instance when I started with Crowley, and one of the engineers, a “hawsepiper” from the Great Lakes (I don’t know what documentation he had, but there was a groupd of engineers that all knew each other from the same town on the lakes working out of Lake Charles at the time - and it really doesn’t matter what paperwork he had) had a huge reputation of resenting the Academy grads that were hired. The placed us together on one of the chartered tugs, the LLAMCO IV that needed two engineers because of the instrumentation. I got the glare and the speech when I started with him. By the end of one trip, it all went away. I did loose quite a bit of respect for him on our third trip together when I found him smoking a joint in the engine room during my watch . . . . just kept it to myself, however. There was a fair amount of that going on back then. . . .

[QUOTE=cmakin;109188]I I did loose quite a bit of respect for him on our third trip together when I found him smoking a joint in the engine room during my watch . . . . just kept it to myself, however. There was a fair amount of that going on back then. . . .[/QUOTE]

Don’t think there’s as much of that going on now.

If I came across an engineer doing dope in the ER, my instinct would be to report it.

Would that be wrong? In high school you’d get beat up for snitching but this ain’t high school.

[QUOTE=Jetryder223;109195]Don’t think there’s as much of that going on now.

If I came across an engineer doing dope in the ER, my instinct would be to report it.

Would that be wrong? In high school you’d get beat up for snitching but this ain’t high school.[/QUOTE]

Times have changed a lot in the last years. In the past, I would have leaned towards looking the other way, now a days I really do not want to be put in the situation where I have to make that decision. On one hand if you turn him or her in they will be fired and on the other hand if you let it slide and they get caught and someone knows that you did not turn them in you will most likely be fired.

[QUOTE=Jetryder223;109195]Don’t think there’s as much of that going on now.

If I came across an engineer doing dope in the ER, my instinct would be to report it.

Would that be wrong? In high school you’d get beat up for snitching but this ain’t high school.[/QUOTE]

You’d be surprised the nooks and crannies you find unexpected things like that in throughout the industry, even now. If I came across it I would absolutely report it. Don’t try to be a hero about it, the least you can do is NOT go out of your way to publicly embarrass whoever it is. Be as discreet as you possibly can be, but definitely say something to someone.

If you were to get fired for not turning them in when they got caught some other way, that would be a bad day for you, but if there’s an accident as a result of their carelessness in using drugs while working, then that would be a REALLY bad day for the whole ship. For the greater good let the sucker get sent home.

During my incarnation as a yardbird I witnessed an awful lot of drug use and solicitation of other “services” which was one of the reasons I beat feet and got out of there. The 90’s was the era of welfare reform and the lifetime welfare users were required to find work, and would “work” for a week then quit, same shit every week for years until things died down and they figured out a cheat or found some other way to stiff the taxpayers. At least I could get away from it and move on.

On a ship, depending on the others around me for my very life, out at sea, it would be very very hard for me to keep my mouth shut. In fact if I spied you smoking weed in my engine room you would need emergency surgery to extract my steeltoe from your backside. I have two grown sons and I read them both the riot act about drugs so I have no qualms at all about setting someone straight.

No offense, of course.

On the academy vs hawsepipe (back to topic), what you bring to the table is what counts, your work ethic and enthusiasm, not so much how you got there. We all have something to offer. That’s why people who put on airs piss me off.

[QUOTE=Jetryder223;109195]Don’t think there’s as much of that going on now.

If I came across an engineer doing dope in the ER, my instinct would be to report it.

Would that be wrong? In high school you’d get beat up for snitching but this ain’t high school.[/QUOTE]

How would you feel if he did something that caused the boat to catch fire and a crewman died due to his negligence and you not saying anything about it? Its a tough spot to be in but at the end of the day if the situation warrants reporting real shipmates will have your back and stand behind you.

I am a greenhorn as well, and I talk out of what little experience I got, so if any other more experienced see fault, please correct me.

What the above say, no matter if you are hawsepipe or a bookworm, first timers should always make sure there is coffee and such.

What I do and as my menthor commented, you gonna reach far in a short time.

I do whatever is being said, and the first six months I told myself that whatever was told me was serious business, even the jokes. Better to be the center of a joke or stopped than missinterperate. Even do work when you are offduty if they need help, work overtime and get the job done than, if the job takes a long time, than just drop your shit and leave it for another. Learn how to use a mop, never crack jokes for a loonngg time, take it and grit your teeth together.
Yes to assignments, if asked or volunteer, even if it is not apart if your job.
Never lie, never done the job? Say Yes, I have never done it, but seen some other dude (if you have) do it, so I’ll give it a try. Never done the job? Say so! They are not impressed when shit goes awry onboard. Better to ask a question too much, regardless of how dumb it is, than screwing up. They will know you are fresh off the carpet, they expect you to hardly know how to breathe almost.
My dad joked a lot, now I view his jokes as a lesson well learnt, he bred and raised me for the sea. He said a lot
When I tell you to jump, son, you ask how high and you do not land before told so!

In a scene where some superiors talk about things you do know, do not be brash and tell them, hell I know this stuff, do as I say…a good way is more a subtle way like…
What if blah blah, insert answer here, add a ?. People, no matter age and such likes to ve trampled on, especially shown they are wrong by an inferior.
Dad also told me, listen to everyone, even the lowest wiper. Many times did he face a problem that him nor his 1st, 2nd or third managed to fix, but that an inferior said. Perhaps some stuff are åring, but led them, due the way he thought, to fix the problem.

When you got nothing to do, read! In my case, when I was done cleaning and such, no idea what I’d do next, I read the engine manuals, still do! Just tell them you are done with your task, ask if they got other assignment, if not, ask if you can read the manuals. Read them again and again AND again…until you know even what stands on what page.
Tells them you are interested in your line of work, willing to learn and an awesome force at work.

Good stuff all.

Guess the saying: “It is better to remain silent and look like a fool than to open your mouth and remove all doubt.” does not apply on board.

Ahhh…I’ll be fine.

[QUOTE=“Jetryder223;109306”]Good stuff all.

Guess the saying: “It is better to remain silent and look like a fool than to open your mouth and remove all doubt.” does not apply on board.

Ahhh…I’ll be fine.[/QUOTE]

For the first time aboard you are a fool!

Hawser or academy does not matter. You are going out as a Cadet. You need to listen and learn about what you are doing from both officers and crew. Also you do not out rank anyone. All too much I get cadets who think that it goes Chief, 1st, 2nd, 3rd, cadet. Thats wrong, you are at the bottom including unlicensed crew. Just becasue you eat in the officers mess and are an officer in training does not mean you are above any crew. Learn from the unlicensed. Some of them have a lot to teach a cadet.
Dont worry about not knowing anything. Thats expected. Be respectful. Being a good shipmate is half the job. Good luck I am sure you’ll do fine