Hawsepipe or go Academy?

Maritime Topics Maritime Training & Licensing
1

Let me begin by saying I know that there have been numerous hawsepipe vs. Academy threads on here. I have read through many of them, but most of these threads didn’t apply exactly to my situation. Although I have applied and am waiting on academy responses ( I applied a bit late, if not this fall then I’ll transfer Spring 2014), I have begun to give strong consideration to the Hawsepipe.These past few weeks, I have really reviewed what both paths offer and the pros and cons associated.

Maritime Academy- [B]Pros: 3rd Mate Unlimited or Engineers License (if something happens, I can work ashore), potential career in blue water, cadet uniform, extracurriculars, fun,[/B] women. [B]Cons: 9, 10, even 11 months out of a year either in school or on a ship. ~100k of debt. It looks like if not in the top 20% of your class, you would be starting as an apprentice/AB for a few months or longer (which I don’t really object to). Spring or Christmas break is about the only time you can visit family and friends. [/B]

Hawsepipe- Work 1080 days at sea (2.95 years) to qualify to sit for the exact same test the academy grad takes. However, after reading through and researching the GoM on here its become apparent to me that a 3rd Mates Unlimited license is essentially going over board (pardon the nautical pun) to work on a OSV or nearshore/Intracoastal.From what I have read, the real “down fall” to not going to an academy is not being able to eventually obtain one of those fancy DP licenses…which I really don’t want to do anyway. Looks like Office Cubicle work. Also, I think the Hawsepipe would allow for more personal downtime with the “even time”, 28/14, etc. schedule. [B]Pros: Pay, real life experience, fun, freedom, mobility Cons: No college degree to fall back on, can’t varsity sail, no like minded academy peers/connections.
[/B]
If I become an O/S this summer, I would be making much, much more than my friends who are becoming indentured servants in college by next year. I don’t have any dependents, so obtaining sea time shouldn’t be an enormous issue considering that the alternative would require ten, unpaid months of my life. I am willing to work most anywhere, but the GoM and the Port of Charleston are my “dream” ports. It would be cool to work on a tanker or cargo between Texas and Florida.

I figure that it is just more logical and sensible to go the hawsepipe over the academy. I would much rather do real, paid work and learn a trade than do College work for four/five years if both paths offered the same outcome.

I was set on going to an academy over Christmas 2012, so I am kinda indecisive on this. I will be graduating HS this May at seventeen.

What do you guys think? I know most companies help with training, but this is quite a daunting decision. Can I even work on a ship at seventeen?

Thanks in advance for the advice and scrutiny. (Apologize for the grammar/english mistakes, wanted to put more thought into the questions than how neat it read)

2

You are assuming you will find work as a OS on something that will give you enough sea time on high tonnage and ocean work to receive the 3/M license in time? Likely you could do it but it will take time. Or go 4 years get all the classes and certs. And a 3/M oceans license with debt that you could repay working for a year or two on the new license with a college degree???

3

[QUOTE=rshrew;104763]You are assuming you will find work as a OS on something that will give you enough sea time on high tonnage and ocean work to receive the 3/M license in time? Likely you could do it but it will take time. Or go 4 years get all the classes and certs. And a 3/M oceans license with debt that you could repay working for a year or two on the new license with a college degree???[/QUOTE]

This is what has me scared. http://gcaptain.com/forum/maritime-employment/11673-louisiana-visit.html

And you are right about having to keep track of all the tonnages and so forth. I honestly can’t decide between the hawsepipe or academies.The debt doesn’t have me concerned, its just whether or not its worth it when you could spend the same amount of paid time to achieve nearly the same result. Most everyone is employed either way. Thanks for your input.

4

Who do you want yelling at you:

  1. A gruff old fart Captain

  2. a young punk upperclassman

5

Honestly than go to school it will be the fastest route and fun.

6

[QUOTE=“rshrew;104768”]

Honestly than go to school it will be the fastest route and fun.[/QUOTE]

Yeah! What he said. Forget the pipe route. Go to college and murder two birds with one stone. You will have a degree and a license. You cannot beat that with a fuckin stick. As a hawsepiper, I am telling you to not even consider it in this day in age. Companies want young college educated license holders with zero experience to run their equipment…why??? I have no idea. The hawsepipe sailor is a dying bread of mariner. It has been a loooooooooooooong road to get my 3rd Mate AGT. Just go to the academy and suck it up for 4 years.

7

To the OP. Go the academy route. You know what you are getting when you go in whereas the hawsepipe route, getting on the right tonnage vessels is not the easiest thing to do. Everything in the gulf now is getting bigger and requiring either a 6000ITC OSV or unlimited licenses. Not all academy grads have zero experience. Many have been working in a family business in the industry or have other relevant experience. For those that don’t have any experience going in (and even those that do) should avail themselves of every opportunity to work nights, weekends and summers on commercial vessels to broaden their scope of experience (not to mention help pay for school). To avoid going back and forth about the quality of academy grads vs hawse pipers my standard disclaimer (and the truth): I have worked with rock stars and complete idiots from both. Either route you decide it is up to you what you make of it regarding the quality of your education (book and real world) and your work ethic.

8

It really depends on what type of work you want to do. If you are looking at the oilfield than you really cannot beat the experience you will get from working on deck. I went the hawsepipe route for my 3rd Mate AGT a while back before they made it easier to transition to it. They length of time in considerably shorter to go hawsepipe vs. academy in my eyes. I would only be a year out of college right now if I went to the academy, but instead I now have my 1600/6000 Master /2nd Mate AGT working as a Relief Master on a OSV for Chouest and soon to be starting on my Chief Mate AGT. I think the academy is a good thing, but having the “golden handcuff” slapped on my at age 18, it was hard for me to be able to quit and start over at an academy. Nothing against the academy guys, but I am glad to be a hawsepiper!

9

If you are young and healthy and have the chance, go to school. The hawsepipe is tough and time consuming. 35 years ago the better bet for me was the Navy and I enlisted, and so I’ve had to spend a lot of time and money just getting prepared to go back to sea. And not with a license either.

So yeah, school. What are you waiting for, get those applications in! :rolleyes:

10

Women? I would highly reccomend you re-evaluate an academy pro to be “women.” There are some, more every year, some good mariners, but its not any reason to go to a maritime academy…i’d highly reccomend almost any other type of college if women is what you seek.

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[QUOTE=SomalianRoadCorporation;104762] Maritime Academy- Pros: 3rd Mate Unlimited, potential career in blue water, cadet uniform, extracurriculars, fun, women. Cons: 9, 10, even 11 out of a months a year either in school or on a ship. ~100k of debt.
Hawsepipe- Work 1080 days at sea (2.95 years) to qualify to sit for the exact same test the academy grad takes. However, after reading through and researching the GoM on here its become apparent to me that a 3rd Mates Unlimited license is essentially going over board (pardon the pun) to work on a OSV or nearshore/Intracoastal.From what I have read, the real “down fall” to not going to an academy is not being able to eventually obtain one of those fancy DP licenses…which I really don’t want to do anyway. Looks like Office Cubicle work. Also, I think the Hawsepipe would allow for more personal downtime with the “even time”, 28/14, etc. schedule. [/QUOTE]
let me start by saying I’m at CMA right now, you’re cons are totally correct your pros are far from. As far as women go, we have what are called maritime goggles similar to beer goggles (Don’t think i need to go any more into this). The blue water fleet is almost non existent. The uniforms and formation at 0720 everyday is a joy!(really there are a pain) but part of the deal. The real pros of the academy are the connections that you can get from the school. the Saying here is its a terrible place to be but a great place to be from. Also, on your hawspipe piece those 1080 days working even time is actually around 6 years, and to become a mate you still have classes and test to take just like we do here.

12

[QUOTE=cali deckie;104804]let me start by saying I’m at CMA right now, you’re cons are totally correct your pros are far from. As far as women go, we have what are called maritime goggles similar to beer goggles (Don’t think i need to go any more into this). The blue water fleet is almost non existent. The uniforms and formation at 0720 everyday is a joy!(really there are a pain) but part of the deal. The real pros of the academy are the connections that you can get from the school. the Saying here is its a terrible place to be but a great place to be from. Also, on your hawspipe piece those 1080 days working even time is actually around 6 years, and to become a mate you still have classes and test to take just like we do here.[/QUOTE]

I grew up near a port, so I know that the US Flag blue water fleet is non-existent. Its pretty sad. Although I really wouldn’t want to work blue water even if given the opportunity. At least in brown water if something happens with or on the ship, the CG or a fellow crew isn’t hundreds of miles away.

"As far as women go"
I probably should have put a /sarcastic after that, because I know that academies are 95% male…but offshore its more like 98%. Just poking fun at that… Although TMA is part “regular” college…

Thanks for the insight, everyone!

13

Why does everyone on here say the blue water fleet is non existent? If you compare the fleet we have now to the fleet back in the 1960s, then yeah I agree with you. Every time I walk in the hall, there are plenty of jobs available. Granted I’m an engineer though.

But to the fella trying to figure out hawsepipe vs. Academy…go academy. Nothing against those who have gone the hawsepipe route, it’s just the CG is making it a lot more difficult to do that. Also consider becoming an engineer…there is a shortage.

14

My question to you is: Journey or Destination?

I’m a hawsepiper. I went from cruise ship bus boy to unlimited deck officer. I agree with the masses that if you want fast and easy an academy is the hands down way to go.

On the flip side, you are young and have a lot of time to adventure. The poor souls who wasted their youth at an academy (aka juvenile detention center for the maritime inclined) will never get those years back. I’d rather slit my wrists and take a warm bath.

You could first try the hawsepipe route via SIU’s apprentice program, work up threw MSC or (I don’t recommend this) look for jobs on your own. If it doesn’t work out after a few years you can still apply to an academy and show up with real experience under your belt, crazy sea stories, a hot car and a youth well lived traveling the world. You’d be a hero to your pimple-faced classmates, an asset to your future employers and you’ll have gotten laid by something far better than those academy sea-hags.

15

My two cents. Although I didn’t know him at the time, When I started shipping out in 1980 Another guy I came to know went to college maritime in '80. So four years later I had my tugboat license and I was sailing as Mate and he came to the boat for about six months as AB. So he and I actually started at the same time, but I started to work earlier. I had four years of employment and income where he had four years of payments and debt. The differences is after 24 years he decided to go home and start a carpentry company using his business knowledge and his education from maritime making more money now doing that than he was earning with a Mates job. So the long story is… It all depends on what you want to do with your life with your career. And what type of vessels you want to work on. If you specifically want to sail on ships go to a Maritime Academy. But, If you just want to knock around on tug or the oil field just try it out for a couple years first. That way you will know if you want to spend the money on Maritime Academy for a license.

16

[QUOTE=SomalianRoadCorporation;104806]
"As far as women go"
I probably should have put a /sarcastic after that, because I know that academies are 95% male…but offshore its more like 98%. Just a poking fun at that… Although TMA is part “regular” college…
[/QUOTE]

A note on that…there is an ancient proverb that goes like this:

“Don’t get your meat where you get your bread and butter.”

I’ll let you figure that out. :slight_smile:

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[QUOTE=cappy208;104824]My two cents. Although I didn’t know him at the time, When I started shipping out in 1980 Another guy I came to know went to college maritime in '80. So four years later I had my tugboat license and I was sailing as Mate and he came to the boat for about six months as AB. So he and I actually started at the same time, but I started to work earlier. I had four years of employment and income where he had four years of payments and debt. The differences is after 24 years he decided to go home and start a carpentry company using his business knowledge and his education from maritime making more money now doing that than he was earning with a Mates job. So the long story is… It all depends on what you want to do with your life with your career. And what type of vessels you want to work on. If you specifically want to sail on ships go to a Maritime Academy. But, If you just want to knock around on tug or the oil field just try it out for a couple years first. That way you will know if you want to spend the money on Maritime Academy for a license.[/QUOTE]

That is a hell of a lot more than two cents.

18

Go to the academy! I wish I had listened to my dad when I was a hard headed 18 year old. He offered to pay for me to go to Maine. I didn’t want to go to any more schools so I went to sea. When it came time to study for a license I found it interfered with my drinking. I always wished I had a better foundation on the basics like electricity. I had to teach all of these things to myself hungover most of the time. It would have been a lot easier and better in the long run to have had the formal education. Save yourself the hassle and spend the money on the academy. Investing in yourself is the best decision you can make.

19

[QUOTE=Fraqrat;104831]Go to the academy! I wish I had listened to my dad when I was a hard headed 18 year old. He offered to pay for me to go to Maine. I didn’t want to go to any more schools so I went to sea. When it came time to study for a license I found it interfered with my drinking. I always wished I had a better foundation on the basics like electricity. I had to teach all of these things to myself hungover most of the time…[/QUOTE]

I have to say, this is by far the closest description of my current situation…minus the alcohol. :rolleyes:

20

[QUOTE=“Fraqrat;104831”]Go to the academy! … It would have been a lot easier and better in the long run to have had the formal education. Save yourself the hassle and spend the money on the academy. Investing in yourself is the best decision you can make.[/QUOTE]

Exactly! A good foundation in book learning is important and rare among hawsepipers, you can get the experience after you graduate.