3 A/E without OICEW Shipping Ideas


#41

[QUOTE=catherder;180849]Am I being unreasonable by suggesting that “academy grad” also implies “young?” Or am I off the mark…[/QUOTE]

Yes, that’s unreasonable for Maritime schools. A very high percentage is in their 30’s and even 40’s.

[QUOTE=catherder;180853]Yep. I see this trend with all kinds of employment. “recent college grad” comes to mind.[/QUOTE]

The jobs I’ve seen like that (about Maritime Academy grads) made me think they were advertising to inexperienced people (thus why [B]recent[/B] grad) specifically because they weren’t going to pay much.


#42

I’m not sure if it’s age or not. I have seen and heard of companies recruiting older cadets right out of college. On the other hand one engineer I worked with who got hired on with a place young (that paid particularly well) explained to me he got his job for being at the right place at the right time, had flunked a semester, had to retake licensing exams, or failed cruise or something and was one of the few cadets hanging around the school waiting for his license to arrive because everyone was graduated already and working etc when a company called the school and told them to send them somebody asap if anyone was around.

He then explained that he learned later on they liked to get people right out of school because the particular ship was complicated and they wanted people to work “their way” and wanted them before they developed any bad habits or something like that. To be honest, I was an oiler so stood watches with many engineers at different companies and didn’t see much of a difference ( I thought most or all of the engineers I worked with deep sea were pretty good). The only thing that was true was that the ship was complicated, diesel electric with a lot of quirks, so maybe they correlated academy grad with being smarter and able to figure it out. Though that reasoning doesn’t make sense to me unless they were an academy grad from a place like SUNY that has electrical engineering degrees. I think someome who sailed electrician in the navy or something first with a lot of experience would be a better on a system like that than a newly minted academy grad that studied marine engineering (marine engineering programs arent very electrical intensive). He wasn’t bad, just not any different than any other engineers I stood watches with. But anyway, that’s just the disconnect and biases we have to deal with. He also mentioned that they wanted people fresh out of college because they wanted permanent employees that would stay a long time, so maybe it’s perceived that fresh out of college cadets are more likely to stay at a place longer. I have no idea, I’m just speculating here, it could be about age but [I]how[/I] much older might be the issue. I would say the academy people I have heard of getting jobs right out of graduated where in their mid 30’s to early 40’s.


#43

[QUOTE=Capt. Phoenix;180867]Yes, that’s unreasonable for Maritime schools. A very high percentage is in their 30’s and even 40’s.

The jobs I’ve seen like that (about Maritime Academy grads) made me think they were advertising to inexperienced people (thus why [B]recent[/B] grad) specifically because they weren’t going to pay much.[/QUOTE]

Well that’s pretty much it in any industry. Get the cheapest labor you can. Young grads need jobs too but that doesn’t mean that over 50’s should just curl up and die, but I get the impression that we’re supposed to do just that (lol)

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[QUOTE=cajaya;180871]I’m not sure if it’s age or not. I have seen and heard of companies recruiting older cadets right out of college. On the other hand one engineer I worked with who got hired on with a place young (that paid particularly well) explained to me he got his job for being at the right place at the right time, had flunked a semester, had to retake licensing exams, or failed cruise or something and was one of the few cadets hanging around the school waiting for his license to arrive because everyone was graduated already and working etc when a company called the school and told them to send them somebody asap if anyone was around.

He then explained that he learned later on they liked to get people right out of school because the particular ship was complicated and they wanted people to work “their way” and wanted them before they developed any bad habits or something like that. To be honest, I was an oiler so stood watches with many engineers at different companies and didn’t see much of a difference ( I thought most or all of the engineers I worked with deep sea were pretty good). The only thing that was true was that the ship was complicated, diesel electric with a lot of quirks, so maybe they correlated academy grad with being smarter and able to figure it out. Though that reasoning doesn’t make sense to me unless they were an academy grad from a place like SUNY that has electrical engineering degrees. I think someome who sailed electrician in the navy or something first with a lot of experience would be a better on a system like that than a newly minted academy grad that studied marine engineering (marine engineering programs arent very electrical intensive). He wasn’t bad, just not any different than any other engineers I stood watches with. But anyway, that’s just the disconnect and biases we have to deal with. He also mentioned that they wanted people fresh out of college because they wanted permanent employees that would stay a long time, so maybe it’s perceived that fresh out of college cadets are more likely to stay at a place longer. I have no idea, I’m just speculating here, it could be about age but [I]how[/I] much older might be the issue. I would say the academy people I have heard of getting jobs right out of graduated where in their mid 30’s to early 40’s.[/QUOTE]

I completely understand the rationale of wanting someone to learn good habits, but the ability to do so is not limited to young people. I learn something new every day, and I tend to be curious about things with which I have no experience. But…after working with enough people my age, I can attest that there are plenty who are happy with simply doing as they are told. Sometimes, with disastrous results.

For reference, I’m in my mid-50’s and working as a 3A/E. Ex-Navy EM…which gives me an advantage in some areas (as you noted)

These are just observations. I’m not ranting about anything in particular. Just making comments about the way things seem to shake out.


#44

[QUOTE=catherder;180900]I completely understand the rationale of wanting someone to learn good habits, but the ability to do so is not limited to young people. I learn something new every day, and I tend to be curious about things with which I have no experience. But…after working with enough people my age, I can attest that there are plenty who are happy with simply doing as they are told. Sometimes, with disastrous results.

For reference, I’m in my mid-50’s and working as a 3A/E. Ex-Navy EM…which gives me an advantage in some areas (as you noted)[/QUOTE]

I have certainly come across young cadets who might best be described as intellectually incurious, which is a unique trait to display for someone whose job onboard is to observe and learn. Age has little to do with it.


#45

[QUOTE=Gimli;180905]I have certainly come across young cadets who might best be described as intellectually incurious, which is a unique trait to display for someone whose job onboard is to observe and learn. Age has little to do with it.[/QUOTE]

Some are great, some are not. I worked with another 3A/E (academy) who was a hard working sonbitch. I hope my main employer (gov’t) doesn’t destroy that work ethic. He makes mistakes, but nothing horrible. He wants to learn, and he will.

People are people. Why pigeon-hole them?


#46

The only way to know for sure is for someone to conduct a huge anonymous survey with all the companies and all recruiters asking if its a)age b)college degree or c) simply ring knocking
It sure would be nice to know before someone tries to get into something intensive like an engineering degree or something. It would suck to do that and find out it was for naught
In any case I don’t think our industry is big enough for anyone to care and I’m pretty sure the marine officers in other countries all go though academies.
It seems that the British and Erupeans are the only ones into doing research on the labor aspect of the industry, so I think we’re out of luck on that.

I have only come across officers who were just completely set in their ways on supply boats. Only place. Not all of them, but that’s just the only place I’ve seen it to that degree.


#47

[QUOTE=catherder;180900]Well that’s pretty much it in any industry. Get the cheapest labor you can. Young grads need jobs too but that doesn’t mean that over 50’s should just curl up and die, but I get the impression that we’re supposed to do just that (lol)[/QUOTE]

Again, this observation didn’t have anything to do with age. I’m not talking about sailing jobs. I’ve only seen land jobs advertising “great job for recent grad” or something similar. Would they accept a person your age? Probably. Would a hawsepiper 3rd Mate (the jobs I’ve seen are deck, I don’t look at engineering jobs) your age be willing to work for what they want to pay? Not likely. Age usually means more financial obligations and hawsepiper usually means a desire to sail thus requiring more financial incentive to take a shore job.


#48

[QUOTE=Capt. Phoenix;180923]Again, this observation didn’t have anything to do with age. I’m not talking about sailing jobs. I’ve only seen land jobs advertising “great job for recent grad” or something similar. Would they accept a person your age? Probably. Would a hawsepiper 3rd Mate (the jobs I’ve seen are deck, I don’t look at engineering jobs) your age be willing to work for what they want to pay? Not likely. Age usually means more financial obligations and hawsepiper usually means a desire to sail thus requiring more financial incentive to take a shore job.[/QUOTE]

And a “recent college grad”, regardless of institution, generally has different financial needs than someone who is not. In addition, they may also be looking at longevity for employment, not necessarily youth, but an effort to engender some employee loyalty. . . (he says with a wink). . . as far as weeding out the old and infirm, a company physical exam can do that. . .


#49

[QUOTE=cmakin;181107]And a “recent college grad”, regardless of institution, generally has different financial needs than someone who is not. In addition, they may also be looking at longevity for employment, not necessarily youth, but an effort to engender some employee loyalty. . . (he says with a wink). . . as far as weeding out the old and infirm, a company physical exam can do that. . .[/QUOTE]

Plus a new grad has less to unlearn.


#50

[QUOTE=Kennebec Captain;181108]Plus a new grad has less to unlearn.[/QUOTE]

Yup. . . . and hopefully will be a bit less cynical . . .


#51

Just FYI, I passed my exams and was also approved for OICEW based on the CFR table. Certs are in the mail. So I suppose my original question was moot, but thanks to everyone who offered ideas.

To anyone preparing to test in the near future - I would highly recommend requesting to test under the new exam regulations effective March 24, 2014. The question banks are much smaller at this point and almost all of the questions on my test were directly from the online question banks. The Motors II exam had a bunch of auxiliary boiler questions that I hadn’t seen before but were easy enough to answer.


#52

[QUOTE=TxsCaptain;182825]Just FYI, I passed my exams and was also approved for OICEW based on the CFR table. Certs are in the mail. So I suppose my original question was moot, but thanks to everyone who offered ideas.[/QUOTE]

So you were approved for OICEW STCW with national license based on the CFR table (3rd A/E, which you were approved for because 180days + ABET degree)?

And because you applied before Jan 1, 2016, you did not have to perform all the assessments and additional training?

Congrats!


#53

[QUOTE=johnny.dollar;182909]And because you applied before Jan 1, 2016, you did not have to perform all the assessments and additional training?[/QUOTE]

As far as I know January 1, 2016 isn’t a cutoff for anything.

If engineers had assessments for OICEW under the old rules (I think they did buy am not sure) then he had to do assessments, he just was allowed to do the old assessments.


#54

[QUOTE=johnny.dollar;182909]So you were approved for OICEW STCW with national license based on the CFR table (3rd A/E, which you were approved for because 180days + ABET degree)?

And because you applied before Jan 1, 2016, you did not have to perform all the assessments and additional training?

Congrats![/QUOTE]

Yes, based on the CFR table I assume. I didn’t have to do the assessments and training because my sea time started before March 24, 2014.


#55

[QUOTE=Capt. Phoenix;182912]As far as I know January 1, 2016 isn’t a cutoff for anything.

If engineers had assessments for OICEW under the old rules (I think they did buy am not sure) then he had to do assessments, he just was allowed to do the old assessments.

[/QUOTE]

See page 24 of Enclosure 2 to NVIC 2-14.


#56

Hahah no way! I recognize that profile picture! This is Kyle from SMA. I’m going through the same thing. I have time for a 3 A/E, but it will be a long time until I can take all the OICEW classes. I called SMA to see if any of those classes were good, but they didn’t even know.
It looks like you posted this awhile ago. I hope everything worked out for you!