Oicew

STCW OICEW can be obtained with the USCG national 3rd seatime. However, OICEW requires additional classes and the assessments. See the USCG checklist for more information; the table on page 2 shows no additional sea service required for a 3rd A/E crossover. (https://www.dco.uscg.mil/Portals/9/NMC/pdfs/checklists/mcp_fm_nmc5_71_web.pdf)

Of note, the CFR stipulates that seatime must be “in the engine department”…6months for EE or ME, and 3 months for marine engineering. This is very broad.

To fully exploit the shore-side opportunities, one really should obtain an ABET degree, even better if it’s the full fledged mechanical/electrical/systems degree (instead of an ABET “technology” degree).

Deep sea isn’t bad for engineers once you get group 2 or a seconds license or any little edge over new grad status like that. Deep sea engineering is a grind and most people don’t stick it out long so there’s lots of room to move up to at least relief first fast and see if you want to get a permanent job, sail as a happy go lucky career relief guy, take your “management experience” ashore, whatever.

Read it as you wish, but I know at least two guys that are sailing now that did the ABET route and got OICEW when they got the 3rd A/E.

The chart specifically says one with 3rd A/E does not need additional sea time. If it makes the logic simpler, break it up into two steps. ABET degree + 180days + pass tests = 3rd A/E. Then apply for OICEW holding 3rd A/E and no additional seatime is required (but assessments and classes still required).

No stipulations are expressed in the CFRs regarding pathway to 3rd A/E. I’m not here to argue, just give information that could help those interested in this route.

from the CFR 46 11.329: (see here) https://www.ecfr.gov/cgi-bin/text-idx?SID=2043d9390892347bc4b38bd215e85e65&mc=true&node=se46.1.11_1329&rgn=div8

(e) Seafarers with one of the following national officer endorsements are eligible to apply for this endorsement upon completion of the requirements in the following table:

Entry path from national endorsements …Sea service* …Competence … Training

Second assistant engineer any horsepower None Yes Yes
Third assistant engineer any horsepower None Yes Yes

This conversation has been had before:

I’m glad that this issue with obtaining STCW OICEW has come up. I’ve had a similar question about Mate and OICNW for a while.

OICNW Less Than 500 GT Oceans is governed by 46 cfr 11.319. Both the CFRs and the checklist have a table in them that states the entry path from a national Mate Oceans or NC of less than 500 GRT requires NO additional sea service under authority of the national endorsement.

Yes the table does state that training and assessments are required.

The training and assessments are spelled out in in the CFR prior to the table. But prior to the table, it also states that “(2) Provide evidence of having performed during the required seagoing service, bridge watchkeeping duties, under the supervision of an officer holding the STCW endorsement as master, chief mate, or OICNW, for a period of not less than 6 months. The Coast Guard will accept service on vessels as boatswain, able seaman, or quartermaster while holding the appropriate deck watchkeeping rating endorsement, which may be accepted on a two-for-one basis to a maximum allowable substitution of 3 months (6 months of experience equals 3 months of creditable service).”

So, when I read the table, it seems to state that you are automatically eligible for OICNW if you have your National Mate. But this one paragraph seems to contradict that, because it is possible to get mate without serving under supervision of another STCW endorsed officer.

Has anyone ever received OICNW through this path w/o serving under a STCW endorsed officer?

From 46 CFR 11.329:

(a) To qualify for an STCW endorsement as OICEW, an applicant must

(1) Provide evidence of seagoing service as follows:

(i) Thirty-six months of seagoing service in the engine department; or

(ii) Successful completion of an approved training program, which includes a combination of workshop skill training and seagoing service of not less than 12 months, and that meets the requirements of Section A-III/1 of the STCW Code (incorporated by reference, see §11.102 of this part);

(2) Provide evidence of having performed during the required seagoing service, engine room watchkeeping duties, under the supervision of an officer holding the STCW endorsement as chief engineer officer or as a qualified engineer officer, for a period of not less than 6 months;

(3) Provide evidence of meeting the standard of competence specified in Section A-III/1 of the STCW Code; and

(4) Provide evidence of having satisfactorily completed approved training in the following subject areas…

You forgot to read what the footnote says:

“* This column provides the minimum additional service required of the seafarer in order to meet the requirements of this section.”

Section ‘e’ doesn’t negate or provide a way around the actual service requirements in section ‘a’ and it doesn’t say that absolutely no additional sea service could possibly be required.

No, only that it’s possible to get it without additional sea time not that it’s automatic. The table is just a summary, the rules from section (a) always apply.

46 CFR 11.319

(a) To qualify for an STCW endorsement as OICNW, an applicant must—

(1) Provide evidence of seagoing service as follows:

(i) Provide evidence of 36 months of service in the deck department on vessels operating in oceans, near-coastal waters, and/or Great Lakes. Service on inland waters, bays, or sounds that are navigable waters of the United States may be substituted for up to 50 percent of the required service. Experience gained in the engine department may be creditable for up to 3 months of the service requirements; or

(ii) Provide evidence of not less than 12 months of seagoing service as part of an approved training program that includes onboard training that meets the requirements of Section A-II/1 of the STCW Code (incorporated by reference, see §11.102 of this part).

(2) Provide evidence of having performed during the required seagoing service, bridge watchkeeping duties, under the supervision of an officer holding the STCW endorsement as master, chief mate, or OICNW, for a period of not less than 6 months. The Coast Guard will accept service on vessels as boatswain, able seaman, or quartermaster while holding the appropriate deck watchkeeping rating endorsement, which may be accepted on a two-for-one basis to a maximum allowable substitution of 3 months (6 months of experience equals 3 months of creditable service);

(3) Provide evidence of meeting the standard of competence specified in Section A-II/1 of the STCW Code; and

(4) Provide evidence of having satisfactorily completed approved training in the following subject areas…

I had gone back and forth on this. When you look at the table under columns for assessments and training, it very clearly says “Yes” and refers back to the preceding text with a footnote that says “Complete any items in paragraph (a) of this section not previously satisfied.” Under sea service, however, it just states “None.” Why would the table not at least include a similar note to complete any items like 6 months under OICNW officer? If you are accurate, at the very least the table is confusing.

Just keep in mind that the table is just a summary of the actual rules and that

I wouldn’t qualify the table as a summary. It is 11.319(d), and therefore at the same level of regulations as 11.319(a), which it refers back to in the case of assessments and training. It seems that the sole purpose of the table is to ensure that only mariners with a national endorsement are eligible to apply for the STCW endorsement of OCINW. But in forming the table such that it specifically refers back to 11.319(a) for both assessments and training, it gives the impression that 11.319(a) is not material to sea service if the mariner already has a national mate endorsement.

No, 11.319(d) is not “at the same level as” part (a), it is a summary of the regulations found in 11.319(a).

The table isnt regulation, it’s a summary comparison of the STCW regulations vs the National regulations.

This is all very interesting, but the OP was asking about the future of Deck officers…

And we were discussing deck officers. I steered the course from OICEW back to OICNW many posts ago.

And I can now say I know multiple people that are sailing deepsea 3rd A/E and above (some 1st or chief) that did the ABET degree +180 days to get their license and STCW OICEW. Perhaps you can debate semantics with them.

LURKERS LOOKING FOR INFORMATION
The USCG has granted the OICEW STCW endorsement to people based on the fact that they meet or have a 3rd A/E license.

I make no promise current applicants won’t hit some hurdles (use a license consultant that’s done this before).When I read the law above, I still believe that the USCG did not grant the aforementioned OICEW endorsements by mistake, because the spirit of this regulation is to align the American 3rd A/E license with the international STCW standards (OICEW).

It is absolutely ridiculous to require someone that has met the requirements and earned a 3rd A/E unlimited to then be required to sail an additional 1080 days before they can stand watch and do the job that required their 3rd A/E in the first place. Which is why it says in part (e) “Seafarers with one of the following national officer endorsements are eligible to apply for this endorsement upon completion of the requirements in the following table:”

This thought is also inline with the requirements to obtain the ETO (Electro-Technical Officer). Under option 4 listed on the USCG checklist, the application holding OICEW, 2nd Eng officer, or Chief has met the sea service requirements and the requirements in option 1 and 2 do not apply. Not surprisingly, the sea service requirements in option 1 and 2 are worded similarly to OICEW section (a).

Readers may interpret this information and draw their own conclusions.

ETO Checklist: https://www.dco.uscg.mil/Portals/9/NMC/pdfs/checklists/mcp_fm_nmc5_216_web.pdf

I don’t know any mates that have taken this path to get STCW OICNW (mainly because there is no ABET degree +180day avenue for deck), but the wording in the CFR is identical to the OICEW wording. I suspect you would have the same successful outcome if you hold an unlimited mates license or high enough tonnage limited license.

They got their OICEW after the rules changed on 01 January 2017 and they’re already sailing as 1AE or Chief Unlimited?

The requirement isn’t 1080 days after getting the license, it’s 1080 total days in order to receive OICEW. Normally a 3AE requires that amount of sea time in order to test so the minimum additional time required is none, though there are cases where some additional time is required.

The USCG can allow any shortcuts and exemptions they want for domestic licenses but they have to issue STCW endorsements in line with the standards of the rest of the world.

The “law” (it isn’t really) is part (a), the table in part (e) is just a summary comparison of the STCW OICEW requirements and applicant US domestic licenses requirements.

They most likely didn’t since the rules changed after the end of 2016. Do you know anyone who has done this in the last 2.5 years?

In answering this question (and about 1st/Cheifs above), you are correct that they all did this before Jan 1 2017.

However, my understanding is that the only thing that changed Jan 1 2017 was the requirement of assessments and classroom training for OICEW. And I feel this is confirmed by this footnote from the eCFR link that shows this CFR was published before 2017:

"[USCG-2004-17914, 78 FR 77909, Dec. 24, 2013, as amended by USCG-2014-0688, 79 FR 58276, Sept. 29, 2014; USCG-2015-0867, 80 FR 62469, Oct. 16, 2015]

Editorial Note: At 79 FR 58276, Sept. 29, 2014, §11.329 was amended; however, a portion of the amendment could not be incorporated due to inaccurate amendatory instruction."

If something is not explicitly stated, how does it apply? It does not “normally” take 1080 days to be eligible to test for the 3rd A/E. In 46 11.516 there are 7 ways to qualify to test for 3rd A/E. Each one of these is “normal” as explicitly stated by the regulations. The path taken to arrive to the destination matters not.

Additionally, 11.516 states: " © A person holding this endorsement may qualify for an STCW endorsement, according to §§ 11.327, 11.329, and 11,333 of this part."

On that thought, check out part (d):

(d) The Coast Guard may exempt an applicant from meeting any individual knowledge, understanding, and proficiency required in Section A-III/1 of the STCW Code. These exemptions must be approved by the Coast Guard based upon vessel type. Under these circumstances, the credential may include a corresponding limitation.

This part (d) explicitly states that it can supersede all the requirements in section (a) (3), so why is it not possible for section (e) to supersede (a)(1)?

I chalk it up to sloppy writing that causes the ambiguity over which we now argue. Similar STCW seatime requirements are used in the multitude of STCW endorsements. Since other STCW endorsements allow a national license to satisfy their respective seatime requirement, it would not be illogical to expect the same for OICEW or OICNW.

Somebody just needs to submit their package and find out, I rekn’.

Additionally, and of completely different thought but on the same topic, if one reviews the requirements for Management level STCW endorsement, it is apparent that the same “table” will allow a 1st or Chief engineer national license to satisfy the seatime requirements.

https://www.ecfr.gov/cgi-bin/retrieveECFR?gp=&SID=cbf6bb79460d19f702746b13e69b53d9&mc=true&r=SECTION&n=se46.1.11_1327

(d) Seafarers with one of the following national officer endorsements are eligible to apply for this endorsement upon completion of the requirements in the following table:

If a great lakes chief unlimited with 20 years of sailing experience wanted to apply for an STCW endorsement, would he have to sail as 3rd “OICEW” for 360 days first? That makes no sense whatsoever and I doubt it’s the spirit/intent of the regulation.

No because he has 20 years of sea time and he has been the OICEW for a significant part of that time.