[QUOTE=johnny.dollar;180705]how one obtains their 3rd A/E is of no consequence to obtaining the STCW, would seem like a logical conclusion.[/QUOTE]
Correct. It doesn’t matter how you got your national license, you still need to meet the minimum requirements for the STCW endorsement.
[QUOTE=johnny.dollar;180705]I still don’t understand what you refer to as summary text. Line (e) specifically states “(e) Seafarers with one of the following national officer endorsements are eligible to apply for this endorsement upon completion of the requirements in the following table:” The table–Table 1 to § 11.329 (e)–specifically states the requirements…requirements that are not listed elsewhere in the section.[/QUOTE]
The table is a summary of the STCW regulations compared to the National regulations.
[QUOTE=johnny.dollar;180705]Also, I spoke with an AMO staff member that explained some of the STCW stuff to me today. Nearly all the rules come from international standards, and the USCG is implementing them which is causing the confusion.[/QUOTE]
STCW is 100% international convention, not just “most of it”.
[QUOTE=johnny.dollar;180655]
If anything, the folks with common sense and real experience toss in the towel and give up!
[/QUOTE]
I may have interpreted it wrong but it sounds like you are inferring that there are other folks that don’t possess the above qualities.
But, anyway I try not to take myself too seriously, I do think your experience is relevant and now that I think of it, you would probably be better than quite a few of the “engineers” out there once you got up to speed.
Weather that would take 6, months, or 1 year or 3 years, I really don’t know, as I started from absolutely ground zero.
Anyway, if enough of you mechanical engineer and electrical engineers expressed interest in it, maybe you can inquire with some of the schools to see if any of them have a 12 month training program in the works. If not, simply enquiring about it might plant the seed somewhere. A lot of things are changing these days, some school somewhere might put together a program specifically for people like you that want to transfer over.
As for me, I wish there was some way for hawsepipers to get ABET certified degrees in marine engineering without having to quit work for a whole three or four years and do the whole cadet ship thing, which would pretty much be redundant…but there is no way. So that’s the way it is for the time being.
[QUOTE=cajaya;180721]As for me, I wish there was some way for hawsepipers to get ABET certified degrees in marine engineering without having to quit work for a whole three or four years and do the whole cadet ship thing, which would pretty much be redundant…but there is no way. So that’s the way it is for the time being.[/QUOTE]
At a minimum you could go to Maine Maritime and get an engineering degree (Marine Systems Engineering) without having to be a cadet.
AMO has a program “college to 3rd” for mechanical/electrical engineers. Found out about it today. One has to call them to get info.
Nearly all established engineering schools in the USA are ABET accredited. Going to one is a requirement for being able to obtain the professional engineering license in most states in a realistic amount of time.
AMO also has a program for high school students to go in that is free to get the 3rd A/E. I think MEBA may have one too. Looks like a great opportunity. A traditional engineering degree (EE, ME, Civil, etc) doesn’t guarantee much these days.
Back to the original topic. I think Great Lakes is the main place to go for non-STCW 3rds.
[QUOTE=johnny.dollar;180728]AMO has a program “college to 3rd” for mechanical/electrical engineers. Found out about it today. One has to call them to get info.[/QUOTE]
Well, that is great to know. I now know which direction to point people in if I come across anyone inquiring about it. MEBA definitely doesn’t have a 3 year program or anything like that. They used to.
[QUOTE=johnny.dollar;180728]
A traditional engineering degree (EE, ME, Civil, etc) doesn’t guarantee much these days. [/QUOTE]
I don’t know if you mean those specific degrees or are including marine engineering but I remember a while back I was trying to apply to work as an engineer on a foreign flagged cruise ship, in the application, it specifically stated that you HAD to have a degree in marine engineering. I pretty much stopped filling out the application then. I have also noticed that it seems like most of the drill ships and rigs hire academy grads for officer positions almost exclusively, also heard countless stories of hawsepipers working for oil companies such as polar, concocophillips etc, with licenses but eventually leaving because they realized they would never get promoted. I sailed with one engineer who worked for concocophillips, said he had a great job there with benefits, 401k match etc but his chief advised him to quit because he said he was a great qmed, knew he had his license and didn’t want to see him stuck there working as a qmed forever when he had a license, that that was just the way they did things. He finally did after he had to train the new third fresh out of the academy.
Degrees are slightly important in this industry for the better paying jobs.
[QUOTE=cajaya;180731]I have also noticed that it seems like most of the drill ships and rigs hire academy grads for officer positions almost exclusively, also heard countless stories of hawsepipers working for oil companies such as polar, concocophillips etc, with licenses but eventually leaving because they realized they would never get promoted. I sailed with one engineer who worked for concocophillips, said he had a great job there with benefits, 401k match etc but his chief advised him to quit because he said he was a great qmed, knew he had his license and didn’t want to see him stuck there working as a qmed forever when he had a license, that that was just the way they did things. He finally did after he had to train the new third fresh out of the academy.[/QUOTE]
I can’t say for sure but it might be like why MSC does that. I’ve heard it’s basically impossible to get promoted from AB to 3rd Mate but MSC hires tons of new graduates every year. In that case it’s because it’s many times easier for them to hire a 3rd Mate than a decent AB.
[QUOTE=cajaya;180731]Well, that is great to know. I now know which direction to point people in if I come across anyone inquiring about it. MEBA definitely doesn’t have a 3 year program or anything like that. They used to.
I don’t know if you mean those specific degrees or are including marine engineering but I remember a while back I was trying to apply to work as an engineer on a foreign flagged cruise ship, in the application, it specifically stated that you HAD to have a degree in marine engineering. I pretty much stopped filling out the application then. I have also noticed that it seems like most of the drill ships and rigs hire academy grads for officer positions almost exclusively, also heard countless stories of hawsepipers working for oil companies such as polar, concocophillips etc, with licenses but eventually leaving because they realized they would never get promoted. I sailed with one engineer who worked for concocophillips, said he had a great job there with benefits, 401k match etc but his chief advised him to quit because he said he was a great qmed, knew he had his license and didn’t want to see him stuck there working as a qmed forever when he had a license, that that was just the way they did things. He finally did after he had to train the new third fresh out of the academy.
Degrees are slightly important in this industry for the better paying jobs.[/QUOTE]
It is always wise to make important career decisions on anecdotal evidence and sea stories. . . .
[QUOTE=cmakin;180745]It is always wise to make important career decisions on anecdotal evidence and sea stories. . . .[/QUOTE]
It all comes down to what is acceptable to one in regards to pay. If 60-80k a year is good (even at age 40), then any engineer (ME, EE, Civil, etc) will have very little problem finding work. I can’t speak for the marine industry.
[QUOTE=Capt. Phoenix;180737]I can’t say for sure but it might be like why MSC does that. I’ve heard it’s basically impossible to get promoted from AB to 3rd Mate but MSC hires tons of new graduates every year. In that case it’s because it’s many times easier for them to hire a 3rd Mate than a decent AB.[/QUOTE]
I have heard people say that about MSC, but the reasons they said, were because you can’t get promoted if you have any write ups and it’s very difficult to spend a lot of time there as an unlicensed and not get written up at least once.
[U][/U][QUOTE=cajaya;180758]I have heard people say that about MSC, but the reasons they said, were because you can’t get promoted if you have any write ups and it’s very difficult to spend a lot of time there as an unlicensed and not get written up at least once.[/QUOTE]
I got promoted from AB to mate at MSC but it’s been a long time since I worked there.
More recently, over the last few years I have had several mates, both hawsepipe and not tell me they switched to deep-sea because they couldn’t get promoted at MSC. But here’s the thing, they were terrible mates, one literally could not plot a lat/long on the chart. I don’t know how MSC evaluates AB to mate but they for sure made the right call on the ex-MSC ABs I sailed with.
[QUOTE=Capt. Phoenix;180763]Wow, that’s sad. That begs the question of how the hell they ever passed the Mate exam.[/QUOTE]
Memorizing answers, multiple retakes and learning to plot from Fowey Rocks to Alligator Reef or whatever chart the CG was using for the test at the time.
[QUOTE=cmakin;180745]It is always wise to make important career decisions on anecdotal evidence and sea stories. . . .[/QUOTE]
It’s not sea stories, I have heard the same story several times over ten years…the person works for an oil related company unlicensed, got their license, spot opens up, they put in academy person in the spot, it goes on for years, they finally quit and go Union. There’s a difference between a sea story and a genuine account of someone’s experience.
[QUOTE=Capt. Phoenix;180723]At a minimum you could go to Maine Maritime and get an engineering degree (Marine Systems Engineering) without having to be a cadet.[/QUOTE]
Well that is great to know, now if they offered about half of those courses as distance courses that would definitely be an option.
[QUOTE=cajaya;180781]It’s not sea stories, I have heard the same story several times over ten years…the person works for an oil related company unlicensed, got their license, spot opens up, they put in academy person in the spot, it goes on for years, they finally quit and go Union. There’s a difference between a sea story and a genuine account of someone’s experience.
[/QUOTE]
Okay, here is the revision. . . It is always wise to make important career decisions on anecdotal evidence, sea stories and hearsay. Modified since some people don’t seem to understand what anecdotal evidence is. . . .
[QUOTE=cmakin;180815]Okay, here is the revision. . . It is always wise to make important career decisions on anecdotal evidence, sea stories and hearsay. Modified since some people don’t seem to understand what anecdotal evidence is. . . .[/QUOTE]
Well for instance suppose a company will only hire a hawepiper at the AB or OS level and then claim that they promote to mate if qualified. On the other hand the academy mates go straight to mate. Now further suppose that several people warn you that the person in charge of hiring and promotion is a big-time ring knocker and is heavly biased against hawepipe mates.
Now say they give you a nice shiny color brochure saying company policy is to hire only the most qualified. An academy mate doesn’t really have any motivation to wonder about the veracity of the brochure and furthmore will take the fact that he was hired as proof that it’s true. A hawepiper has to obtain information from other sources or risk going to work unlicensed where he has no real chance of promotion.
Someone that went to the schools may never learn that. Or need to.
Cajaya’s experience aside, there are ads out there that advertise for academy grads. Seen them. Not “third mate” or “third assistant engineer,” but academy grad third mate" etc. Plenty of us have seen them.
How do they get away with this, with age discrimination laws on the books? Am I being unreasonable by suggesting that “academy grad” also implies “young?” Or am I off the mark…
[QUOTE=z-drive;180850]especially “recent” academy grad[/QUOTE]
Yep. I see this trend with all kinds of employment. “recent college grad” comes to mind. Never applied to an ad like that. I graduated at 42. They find other ways to winnow out old people.