Thanks for the information on the OSV 6000t. One last question, if a new mariner with a MMD wanted to go the OSV route,only take OSV mate/master exams or required courses how soon could they get a master OSV thus qualifying for the 84 hour OSV 6000 training program? From OS to master, how long?<br>Thanks
"My comparison is this, Now listen because it seems “YOU” are a slow
interpreter…Take an Unlimited Guy with no experience at all anchor
handling. Simply because he has the unlimited license? <br><br> I never even implied that such a thing would be a good idea. That would be as ludicrous as making a anchor boat captain master of a container ship, neither would ever happen and no one has ever said it was a good idea. My point was simply that anchor handling is not some esoteric ability that a professional mariner couldn’t handle with some training, even your own company has captains with less than one year of anchor handling experience pulling solo watches while anchor handling; though they may not be as charming as you.<br>Best Regards
tengineer-To qualify for either the “non-trade restricted” Mate 500/1600 or the “OSV restricted” Mate on near coastal (domestic) waters you must have a minimum amount of sea service, complete certain training programs, perform proficiency demonstration and pass a Coast Guard Exam. The sea service requirements are the same for either license, but the difference in the training, assesments and exams are huge. 720 days deck service including 360 days of service on vessels ove 50 gross tons with 90 days of service as able seaman. To upgrade to Master OSV you are Looking at 2 more years sea service and testing. Start to finish new OS out of the box walking on a boat 5 years Master OSV in hand. Go from 40,000 first year to 140K in five years. Mate OSV applicants take a special training and assessment program. Candidates are given a record of training describing 54 activities ranging from using a GPS to docking the vessel, that must be mastered. Also they have to complete Basic & Adv Fire fighting, Radar and basic first aid. The exams are 5: Rules 50, Deck General 50, Navigation General 60, Plotting 15 and Terrestrial 10. This bypasses all STCW course required for unerstricted 1600 Mate/3Mate 2Mate.
“ESOTERIC ABILITY” Damn, I had to look that one up. I never said you insinuated that. I said knotship was making that insuation. It wasn’t said, but I felt it was implied. Although the skills involved are not mysterious or secret, I think you get my point. Thanks for expanding my vocabulary. I am glad you find me charming, most people don’t. <br><br>I agree the company has people on anchor handlers with a year or maybe less experience. It is called training, learning. I am still learning, but I promise you one thing “ALL” those boat have the “Key” positions filled by experienced anchorhandlers. Just like everybody new boats are coming and the positions have to be filled. Now is the time to get new people in. Eventually the cord has to be cut and you either sink or swim. We have 4 new people on here. Not new to boats or even anchor handling. Just new to this vessel. In my opinion it says a lot about a company incurring the added payroll expense on one vessel to make sure new vessels are crewed with competent individuals and older boat positions are filled with people already familiar with the equipment.
Five years and 84 days from OS to Master OSV 6000t [maybe soon unlimited tonnage] of a vessel that’s essentially a tank vessel, what with all oil based mud, fuel, methanol etc you guys supply to rigs is quite a big jump, no tankerman PIC needed. What a deal.<br> One last question. For many years the companies I work for have only sea time letters as “time under way” as the CFRs state. Are you guys still getting sea time for your entire hitch whether in port or underway? <br>Thanks.
Tengineer: 5 years from OS to Master is a big jump? With 3 years of sea time, and your AB ticket, you can sit for your original 3rd Mate. With one additional year of service, you can sit for your 2nd Mate’s ticket, and your 1600 Master (3000 to 6000 ITC). Now whether anyone sticks you behind the wheel with a brand new Master’s ticket, is totally up to you. So, where’e the issue with the Master OSV ticket, or are you just inventing one? As for product transfer, I would imagine that if you matched it barrel for barrel, the OSV industry has a better track record for safety than their larger cousins…and, that would be while they’re underway, maneuvered alongside a rig, or a drillship transferring product, be it liquid, dry, deck cargo, fuel, specialty fluids, water. You seem to have some kind of sour grapes attitude about the oil patch, and I for one would like to know why. Personally, my career started off there, and I’m a better all around mariner because of it. What bit you in the ass in the GOM?<br><br>On to other things…<br><br><strong>Your quote</strong>: “One last question. For many years the companies I work for have only
sea time letters as “time under way” as the CFRs state. Are you guys
still getting sea time for your entire hitch whether in port or
underway?”<br><br>I’ve typed/written many a discharge, and sigend a lot of sea time letters. Show me on the official discharge where the “time underway” block is? A “day” of service, as the CFR’s define them is as follows: “Day means, for the purpose of complying with the service requirements of this part (46 CFR), eight hours of watchstanding , or day-working not to include overtime. On vessels where a 12 hour working day is authorized and practiced, such as on a six-on, six-off watch schedule, each work day may be creditable as one and one half days of service.”" Where is the part about “time underway”? Can you please provide me the Title, and Part so I can refer to it, please?<br><br>As for OSV’s being in port, or underway, not many of them are sitting around warming their thumbs up their backside these days, and just like their larger counterparts, are usually found conducting cargo ops of one kind or another, or entry level personnel can be found conducting maintenance about the ship. <br><br>I’d like to see some more of this “esoteric” OSV stuff you seem to not know much about. For not knowing much about the industry, you sure seem to have a lot misinformation to share.
El Capitan,<br> For a start you may refer to the following:<br><strong>ABLE SEAMAN (AB)</strong> (46 CFR 12.05)
All sea service must have been obtained on vessels in the deck
department while <span style="text-decoration: underline;]underway</span>. The sea service requirements for the
different levels of Able Seaman are:
<ol>[li]Able Seaman (Unlimited) - A total of three years service
[/li] (1,080 days). All of this time must have been on vessels
over 100 gross tons. [li]Able Seaman (Limited) - Eighteen months (540 days)
[/li] service on board vessels of 100 gross tons or more. [li]Able Seaman (Special) - Twelve months (360 days) service
[/li] on board vessels greater than 65 feet in length. [li]Able Seaman (OSV) - Six months (180 days) service on
[/li] board vessels over 15 gross tons. </ol>There was a licensed officer prosecuted by the USCG for falsifying his sea time record due to the fact that the vessel was in dry dock during some of the time listed on his sea time letter. If you are really interested you could contact the NMC for clarification of the underway issue.<br><br>
El Capitan<br><br>“You seem to have some kind of sour grapes attitude about the oil patch,
and I for one would like to know why. Personally, my career started
off there, and I’m a better all around mariner because of it. What bit
you in the ass in the GOM?”<br><br>Excuse me if that how it appears as it is not thing case at all. Some of the fondest times in my maritime career were back when Otto Candy was running things down there and Edison Chouest was working with his son Gary making a go of things. My issue is the dumbing down of the requirements in the offshore industry. I am not a young man and I remember when most had no license in the GOM and then the USCG came and gave out licenses for free, no test required. The idea was there would be a new day coming and we would all have to get smarter and get up to the level of the rest of the maritime industry in the world. I did and many of my friends did. Then we saw that the USCG never changed the requirements much, never toughened things up, they came up with a ‘limited license’. So now you have a captive group down there. The companies are pushing the rules thru and creating their own little world which is not transferable to any other shipping industry or any other place in the world. I also remember when it all went to hell back about 20 years ago and those engineers and captains lost their houses, life savings and everything else because they didn’t have a license they could work with out of the GOM.<br>That my friend is what bit me in the ass in the GOM. <br>If the lobbyists for the companies keep inventing these special offshore specific licenses in the end it will be the working man that gets bit in the ass. Norway, UK and other countries don’t seem to have a need for a special offshore license so why does the USA? I happen to believe we are as smart as anyone else. Let’s not dumb down the process.<br>
Oh my, may the family of Mr Otto Candies forgive me for misspelling his name in my previous post.<br>I am truly sorry. <br>Tengineer
Actually, I thought I was going to have an intelligent debate. Unfortunately, I found my opponent unarmed.
Start quoting the CFR’s as they’re written, and not in your own recitation. Go back, and try again.
I’ll be more than happy to post the entire Part 12 of 46 CFR, and Subpart 12.05 if we need to - here’s 12.05-7 as it references Service and Training Requirements.
Now show me where in the requirements for AB does it say “While Underway”?
<strong>Finally, we’ve gotten to the meat of the matter. Thank you. <br><br>This is the way you should make your point, now, and in the future.<br><br>Are our licenses in jeopardy of being diluted? Do other countries share the leisure of having industry specific licensure? Are our mariner’s less knowledgeable than their predecessors?<br><br><span style="text-decoration: underline;]Excellent</span> items for debate.<br><br>By the way, I think Otto (RIP), Kevin, and Paul will forgive you.</strong><br><br><br><br>El Capitan<br><br>“You seem to have some kind of sour grapes attitude about the oil patch,<br>and I for one would like to know why. Personally, my career started<br>off there, and I’m a better all around mariner because of it. What bit<br>you in the ass in the GOM?”<br><br>Excuse
me if that how it appears as it is not thing case at all. Some of the
fondest times in my maritime career were back when Otto Candy was
running things down there and Edison Chouest was working with his son
Gary making a go of things. My issue is the dumbing down of the
requirements in the offshore industry. I am not a young man and I
remember when most had no license in the GOM and then the USCG came and
gave out licenses for free, no test required. The idea was there would
be a new day coming and we would all have to get smarter and get up to
the level of the rest of the maritime industry in the world. I did and
many of my friends did. Then we saw that the USCG never changed the
requirements much, never toughened things up, they came up with a
’limited license’. So now you have a captive group down there. The
companies are pushing the rules thru and creating their own little
world which is not transferable to any other shipping industry or any
other place in the world. I also remember when it all went to hell
back about 20 years ago and those engineers and captains lost their
houses, life savings and everything else because they didn’t have a
license they could work with out of the GOM.<br>That my friend is what bit me in the ass in the GOM. <br>If
the lobbyists for the companies keep inventing these special offshore
specific licenses in the end it will be the working man that gets bit
in the ass. Norway, UK and other countries don’t seem to have a need
for a special offshore license so why does the USA? I happen to
believe we are as smart as anyone else. Let’s not dumb down the process.<br>
El Capitan,<br><br>“Actually, I thought I was going to have an intelligent debate. Unfortunately, I found my opponent unarmed.”<br> <br> ignored<br><br><br><br><br>You can say what you wish but a call to the NMC will confirm that underway time is required. If not why are there special provisions for lift boats and ready reserve vessels which give time on a 1 for 2 or 3 basis?<br><br>As for as your other issue. I do believe the limited licenses are in danger of either being diluted or becoming too specialized to be of value. I couldn’t help but wonder when I read the proposed new rule for the OSV license. Who benefits? The only thing the holder gets is bragging rights and a job oppotunity from another offshore company. In the larger world of shipping it is not a marketable license so the OSV company gets a captive license holder to whom they can control wages and benefits. <br>It’s something for the folks who work in the OSV industry to keep in mind. <br><br>Tengineer<br>
<P align=justify>Do you have do be underway making way or just underway? What a nightmare to differentiate all the days of thousands of employees. If you are tied to the dock with engines running and a thruster pressing the dock does that count? I am making fun, but it seems unrealistic to think that you are only credited for days actually underway because a watch is being stood whether you are under way or secured to the dock.<br><br>Believe me they are not just handing out licenses. These guys are working hard to get them and the assessments are comprehensive. Most of them have to be done more than once. Three times for most of them. Do you understand what it is bypassing? It is bypassing over 18,000 bucks in STCW classes. Most AB’s can not afford to do that out of pocket and I could imagine a company taking the time to train someone and then they haul butt to another company. Happens all the time. To tell you the truth I haven’t really been dazzled by these STCW classes for Chief Mate/Master. I have been impressed with the instructors, but the classes are not overly challenging and maybe they aren’t supposed to be. Nobody is inventing licenses. I understand your point and can see your side, but start to finish for an OS to Unlimited Master is only 6-1/2 to 7 years for an ambitious individual. Is that a big jump? It would be bad for the industry if the Mate/Master OSV program was not a reality.</P>
“it seems unrealistic to think that you are only credited for days
actually underway because a watch is being stood whether you are under
way or secured to the dock.”<br>ge<br> I hope you and El Capitan are correct because it will simplify matters for me and many others who have to keep up with sea time. For long time I have had to account for certificates of discharge for my assistents. I then turn them over to shoreside management and they verify with payroll before issuing a sea service letter which states days underway and even routes [seems dumb to state routes for engineers but they do]. It has always made sense to me that underway time would be most important, especially for the bridge people. After all it doesn’t take a tremendous amount of navigational ability to maintain a good course when tied to the pier, so I can see where the USCG many years ago got the idea that time underway was all that counted towards experience. BUT, maybe things have changed.<br>So that I am sure I’m not completely nuts and to keep me from having to do needless work I have sent a letter including the experience and opinions stated on this board regarding the awarding of sea time to NMC and HQ USCG. <br> I’ll let you all know what they say.
Just wondering what happened to the original poster for those 15 DPO positions? Will there ever be a response???
“it seems unrealistic to think that you are only credited for days<br>actually underway because a watch is being stood whether you are under<br>way or secured to the dock.”<br><br>Finally got an answer, of sorts. I was referred to one particular clause from NMC policy letter 09-01.<br><br>2. Reference (a) provides for the evaluation of service in a marine related area, other than at sea, or on unique vessels, for a determination of equivalence to traditional service. <br> <span style="text-decoration: underline;]Actual underway service is essential to development of the skills, experience, and knowledge expected of a licensed merchant marine officer or qualified rating. Time while moored may provide some of the professional experience, but it cannot substitute equally for actual underway experience.</span> [emphasis added]<br><br>When I mentioned that this policy letter seemed to primarily refer to gambling vessels I was told it doesn’t matter because only time underway was supposed to count as sea time though it has not been strictly enforced but could be enforced strictly so it would be best to continue to document underway time. Mention was made of one engineer who was prosecuted for falsifying his sea time by claiming time while in dry dock. However, we all know sea service letters have and are being written for mariners for an entire hitch whether in port, dry dock or underway. <br><br> The fact that strict interpretation of the awarding of sea time may be subject to selective enforcement by the USCG is disconcerting. So to be on the safe side we continue to keep up with underway time for our sea service discharge certificates. I wish they would just come out and say that if the vessel is underway more than 80% or whatever % they choose one could claim sea time straight thru. Sure would save a lot of aggravation and eliminate the possibility of selective prosecution.<br>Tengineer<br>
Tengineer, the only explanation I can come up with is you are a hard head that spent too much time underway, but not really making way. Good Luck in your Golden Years!
If you’re working in the capacity of your license, you are getting seatime or a percentage of seatime… period. Even certain positions like instructors/port captains get enough seatime credit to keep their license current without even being a crew member at the dock or on a voyage. This is common knowledge…ask Mr.Cavo, or your evaluator.
Anchorman’s right about shoreside time, however none of it counts towards underway time.<br><br>Instructors get 1/2 day for each day worked at an approved school up to a total of 180 days. This sea time credit is good only towards a raise in grade. <br><br>If you’re working shoreside in a related capacity (port captains, shipyard supervisors, etc) you can receive sea time credit but none this qualifies for underway recency (360 in the last 5) time. I don’t remember if this time is 1/2 day per day or full credit.
dougpine<br> I think you’re correct.In the recent past the engineering dept got day for day underway and either 1 for 1 or 1 for 3 or 1 for 5 for dockside repairs depending on the REC, the phase of the moon, etc… We have traditionally specified whether we were underway or dockside for repairs, between contracts etc., so as to avoid any problems. The deck department has at times gotten less sea time credit than the engineering staff for dockside or reduced operating status, or so they tell me. Hopefully with the centralization of the RECs there will be some consistency established.