Personally I thought you made a really solid point there, KC. Not that I’m a huge fan of unions, but they do seem to have a generally bad name these days. I don’t think the perception that unions are mafia-controlled (whether true or not) helps either.
[QUOTE=awulfclark;120059]Personally I thought you made a really solid point there, KC. Not that I’m a huge fan of unions, but they do seem to have a generally bad name these days. I don’t think the perception that unions are mafia-controlled (whether true or not) helps either.[/QUOTE]
i don’t think any of the maritime unions are mafia-controlled. however, I find it pretty amazing that sacco managed stay out of prison while the mckay boys served time. i’m sure he had nothing to do with their ballot tampering, but he’s sure no angel for the SIU.
the AMO and SIU are in bed together on so many levels it’s almost inconceivable. those entities are probably the worst things that have happened to deep sea wages/contracts since manning reductions in the 80s.
i was joking about SIU thuggery, but i have sailed with an AB out of JAX who swears that 20-30 odd years ago a young mike sacco and 2 goons came down to his tug boat intimidating crew to join SIU and busted a few knee caps.
the bigger point i was trying to make is that the SIU preaches job security, good wages, etc. the wages are OK for the labor required, but the pensions they will draw for all the middle guys who make up the majority of the SIU (ABs, Wipers, Ch. Cooks, etc.) are horrible in the long run. meanwhile Sacco and Telez are sleeping on beds of cash.
but hey, at the end of the voyage, it’s always thanks to the stwds dept for great meals, no disputed OT, and no beefs of any kind. be sure to contribute to PAC!
clown show abusing its members!
[QUOTE=Kennebec Captain;120036]I don’t get this. Right now, the financiers at the big banks are hauling in the bucks making big bets they can’t cover if the shit hits the fan. They can do that because they know the taxpayers will back them up if they get in a pinch. It’s heads they win tales you lose.
But they went to school at Harvard, they are polite and dignified , they are dressed up in expensive suits and get taken to work in a limo. These people are variously called the elites, the 1% , the job creators or the makers and they are robbing you blind.
What if a working man manages to get himself a cushy job in an office after working the waterfront? He is at best a “corrupt union boss” that tells the “rank and file” what to do and uses his “goons” and “thugs” to enforce.
If it’s a Harvard educated lawyer stealing money everyone bows down and kisses his ass, he obviously deserves to be at the top because he doesn’t have the stink of manual labor on his hands.[/QUOTE]
i can understand you’re point on that. but i don’t feel like i am being robbed blind in any way shape or form.
i didn’t buy at the top of the ridiculous housing peak, put down nearly about 115K on a 370k house, investments have fully recovered, never lost my job, only had to forgo a couple of 2-3% annual COLA adjustments on contracts to get 10 or 12 year contract guarantee.
rough math, i figure i lost maybe a total of annual 6k on 6mos shipping per year that just went into effect march 01. if had been working GOM instead of deep sea, i would have only gotten pay raises since 2008 and better 401k, etc.
i hold no ill will towards the 1%. the latest number on the 1% is $394k per year. it’s capitalism. i maybe not be a 1% ,but I am way above the median and the mean household US income. i am in the top 5%; am i supposed to be upset with the 4% ahead of me? i would bet there are a whole lot of people on Gcaptain who are in the same boat, or better. while so, so many americans haven’t seen a pay raise in almost 5yrs, let alone managed to escape wage cuts, firings, or exhausted unmeployment benefits.
the banks do not share all the blame for the housing crash, maybe 50%. nobody put a gun to anybody’s head saying buy this house with the ARM loan,let alone NINJNA loans. uneducated people shouldn’t be buying houses if they can’t fathom the risks, let alone read the fine print. the american dream of owning a home is a farce that turned into the american right of a owning a home no matter your credit history, work history, down payment, or financial acumen.
KC, i don’t know Sacco’s background. don’t care. i just know how badly the SIU ultimately gets treated when it’s time to hang up your MMC and enjoy retirement.
the mast majority of them i sail with, young and old, newbies and salties, all laugh about it. but they fear Leadership’s retaliation for speaking out or questioning things when it comes to time for job call.
[QUOTE=catherder;120031]Well the SIU just lost the Watson class LMSRs…way to go, rah rah rah and all that jazz. What a cluster you know what.
I joined over two months ago and still no book. Good thing I have a job!![/QUOTE]
don’t whine about Watson class. the legion of doom that is SIU/AMO has had a near stranglehold on all good gov’t contratcs (the ones that carry cargo) that were actually in FOS frequently, let alone all the gov’t ships they have in general.
I am glad and surprised that Patriot got it, but it’s kind of just desserts for them getting shafted on retaining bob hope LMSRS in 2005 or 2006.
seriously, you’ve been in the SIU for 2 whole months and you’re complaining about not having a book?
you’re either insane or that was a typo?!
Jonny
I might have been a bit over-caffeinated this morning, your comments were not out of the ordinary.
I have seen that the financial crisis of 2008 is going cost the economy about 14 trillion dollars. However we are worried that someone on a tug somewhere is making $40 a day more then he should because he is in a union and that violates someones understanding of the free market or some such.
Just ranting, wasn’t really directed at your post.
[QUOTE=Kennebec Captain;120066]Jonny
I might have been a bit over-caffeinated this morning, your comments were not out of the ordinary.
I have seen that the financial crisis of 2008 is going cost the economy about 14 trillion dollars. However we are worried that someone on a tug somewhere is making $40 a day more then he should because he is in a union and that violates someones understanding of the free market or some such.
Just ranting, wasn’t really directed at your post.[/QUOTE]
copy that, but consider that someone w/ limited tonnage license in GOM on some form of OSV can start out in a trainee slot making way more than unionized 3/m or 3a/e?
isn’t going rate for 1600T mate trainee at least $575/day? you’re certainly not going to regularly make that starting out as new 3/m with MMP or AMO, and that’s before you factor in union dues, intiation fees, money spent hanging out in CHAS, LA, NY, SF, etc. for jobs. you’ll also be lucky to get 5 mos work a year.
and i would never begrudge SIU their wages. i’d like to see them get paid more now, and in their pension later. but i don’t think it would ever happen w/o cutting my pay. i have better “leadership” on my side negotiating things like that than is doen for the SIU by theirs. there is good and bad on both sides.
[QUOTE=SomalianRoadCorporation;120051]Nice straw man. So I guess you can’t be against all corruption, both union and non-union? It just so happens that we are specifically chatting about union thuggery, but nice attempt to change the topic and distract.[/QUOTE]
i started the knee cap busting joke, so, I’ll finish it.
the point wasn’t union thuggery in my post, nor was the original point of this thread.
it was simply a joke (but true) that it would be a lot more honest of him to act that way instead of pretending like he really is out for the good of the SIU members. the SIU just signs one sweetheart contract after another that have taken away so many items that used to pay them extra for getting called out off watch, weekends in port, rules about changing the sailing board, etc., that they are on the verge of just being 12hr day workers (weekends included) deep sea, only getting OT after 12hrs.
all while leadership is living it up.
can’t even imagine how much he makes compared to best paid bosun or electrician in all of the SIU.
it’s truly a shame.
[QUOTE=Johnny Canal;120074]copy that, but consider that someone w/ limited tonnage license in GOM on some form of OSV can start out in a trainee slot making way more than unionized 3/m or 3a/e?
isn’t going rate for 1600T mate trainee at least $575/day? you’re certainly not going to regularly make that starting out as new 3/m with MMP or AMO, and that’s before you factor in union dues, intiation fees, money spent hanging out in CHAS, LA, NY, SF, etc. for jobs. you’ll also be lucky to get 5 mos work a year.
and i would never begrudge SIU their wages. i’d like to see them get paid more now, and in their pension later. but i don’t think it would ever happen w/o cutting my pay. i have better “leadership” on my side negotiating things like that than is doen for the SIU by theirs. there is good and bad on both sides.[/QUOTE]
The deep-sea sector of the merchant marine is on life-support at this point. It’s a wonder we are even still working much less making any kind of decent money.
Unions in this environment no longer have any real say in economic matters. As the number of union workers decreases the remaining unions become less able to influence wages or work conditions. Unions are pretty much circling the drain at this point.
If the extremely wealthy and powerful can extract another nickle out of the economy by destroying unions they’ll do it and half the country will be cheering them on. Good riddance to the thugs and goons.
[QUOTE=Kennebec Captain;120076]The deep-sea sector of the merchant marine is on life-support at this point. It’s a wonder we are even still working much less making any kind of decent money.
Unions in this environment no longer have any real say in economic matters. As the number of union workers decreases the remaining unions become less able to influence wages or work conditions. Unions are pretty much circling the drain at this point.
If the extremely wealthy and powerful can extract another nickle out of the economy by destroying unions they’ll do it and half the country will be cheering them on. Good riddance to the thugs and goons.[/QUOTE]
i agree on our fate, but what do the goons and thugs have to do with uber wealthy that most certainly want unions destroyed? serious question, no sarcasm.
i truly believe that bad union reputations come from things like the UAW and the ILA/ILWU. certainly won’t disagree with longshoremen reps, but regardless, it brings all of them down. maritime unions (let alone ships) aren’t even a blip on the public’s radar, but the word “union” is simple guilt by association.
fortunate for specific regions (but probably not viewed that way by UAW) the deep south’s aversion to unions ultimately brought a lot of good paying jobs at both labor and mgmt level to SC, MS, AL, TN, and probably other states that i am not aware in form of Mercedes, BMW, Nissan, Hyundai, etc. that may have never come here at all if they had to be unionized. it may happen later, but its absence was key in their commitment.
20-30 yrs ago could anyone have imagined a Mercedes plant in Alabama or a BMW plant in SC?
[QUOTE=“Johnny Canal;120079”]i agree on our fate, but what do the goons and thugs have to do with uber wealthy that most certainly want unions destroyed?[/QUOTE]
I’m pretty sure the “thugs and goons” was a reference to why the public will be cheering when the uber wealthy get rid of unions (as in, that’s the public impression of union bosses so they will be glad the unions are gone).
[QUOTE=“Kennebec Captain;120066”]However we are worried that someone on a tug somewhere is making $40 a day more then he should because he is in a union and that violates someones understanding of the free market or some such.[/QUOTE]
All the talk I have seen here is about how LOW union wages (day rate, overtime, benefits, retirement, etc.) are, not that they are being paid too much. The consensus seems to be that the union leadership is selling out its members to line their pockets.
[QUOTE=Capt. Phoenix;120094]All the talk I have seen here is about how LOW union wages (day rate, overtime, benefits, retirement, etc.) are, not that they are being paid too much. The consensus seems to be that the union leadership is selling out its members to line their pockets.[/QUOTE]
I don’t know much about the SIU. As far as talk, I’d like to see something a little more persuasive then a vague, anonymous comment on a internet forum.
[QUOTE=“Kennebec Captain;120097”]I don’t know much about the SIU. As far as talk, I’d like to see something a little more persuasive then a vague, anonymous comment on a internet forum.[/QUOTE]
I agree, but my point was just that no one on here has ever complained that union guys are making too much. The complaints are that they are constantly underbidding contracts and screwing the mariners. Maybe things would improve if shipping picked up and there wasn’t so much competition to survive between unions…
[QUOTE=Capt. Phoenix;120099]I agree, but my point was just that no one on here has ever complained that union guys are making too much. The complaints are that they are constantly underbidding contracts and screwing the mariners. Maybe things would improve if shipping picked up and there wasn’t so much competition to survive between unions…[/QUOTE]
I’ve seen the same thing in the oilfield over the years. Overbuilding in the late '70s and early '80s. The companies undercutting each other and the mariner getting the shaft. The cooks were the first to go. Wages and crews cut. Companies not dying gracefully. It’s cyclical. It would just be nice if the shipping and towing industries would cycle up.
In the mean time, I’ll just do as I have done the past 4 years. Live fairly well on my SIU pension.
[QUOTE=Capt. Phoenix;120099]I agree, but my point was just that no one on here has ever complained that union guys are making too much. The complaints are that they are constantly underbidding contracts and screwing the mariners. Maybe things would improve if shipping picked up and there wasn’t so much competition to survive between unions…[/QUOTE]
us flag shipping companies are struggling to survive in general, especially those not connected to papa maersk. when MSP cuts get handed out (quite likely) on OCT 1st, we’ll see which ships are kept under US flag even w/o that 3+ miilion per year.
the unions that are constantly underbidding contracts and mariners are solely AMO and SIU. the only really crappy active cargo ships left in MMP are Crowley express ships on N Europe run. but that is a MEBA contract that has a long story behind it. there is no language whatsoever in that contract for officer manning which mentions MMP. MMP has not been to the bargaining table on that contract as long as it has been Crowley (post Lykes and post MTL) and has once again been shut out of upcoming negotiations (by MEBA) for 2015 renewal.
i certainly don’t feel my wages are low, especially considering i’m not working a contractual 12 hr day. and as much as i often do not agree with union officials, i certainly do not feel as though i have been sold out in order for their good fortune,
[QUOTE=Capt. Phoenix;120093]I’m pretty sure the “thugs and goons” was a reference to why the public will be cheering when the uber wealthy get rid of unions (as in, that’s the public impression of union bosses so they will be glad the unions are gone).[/QUOTE]
unfortunately, a lot of that public comprises federal, state, and county teachers, various LEOs, firefighters, who are having their collective bargaining rights on all but the most inconsequential areas stripped from them by state legislatures.
collectively, they number more than probably all blue collar unions put together (including all maritime unions, both longshore unions, and the UAW).
i could hope public would not cheer such dissolution, b/c just hurts them in the long run, but most are too ignorant to see down the road that far.
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[QUOTE=Kennebec Captain;120097]I don’t know much about the SIU. As far as talk, I’d like to see something a little more persuasive then a vague, anonymous comment on a internet forum.[/QUOTE]
so exactly what is it that you would like to see re: this subject matter. you want wage numbers? pension numbers?
Given the two choices you give, I would have to go with MSC. And if you do go with MSC, do not join SIU. It is not required and they have to represent you anyway. Basically as a government employee they can’t do anything for you should a beef arise anyhow. I spent 17 years at MSC ( More Shit Coming). And it sucked. Long hitches with short vacations. There was also the Navy inspired nonsense which is never ending. That said, the benefits can’t be beat. Cheap insurance, the TSP and the pension are all better than what you would get at SIU (Scabs Is US)
[QUOTE=Johnny Canal;120063etc.]
i hold no ill will towards the 1%. the latest number on the 1% is $394k per year. it’s capitalism.[/QUOTE]
I think the 1% is a motto, not meant to be taken literally, it’s short hand for the plutocracy.
AIG executives made good money taking bets they couldn’t cover. When the economy went sour they got a $180 Billion dollar bailout from the taxpayers… AIG then paid out a $165 million dollars in bonuses to its executives.
This is not capitalism in any form the Adam Smith (who supported collective bargaining in his [I]Wealth of Nations[/I]) would have recognized. I do mind having my wages taxed to provide insurance to cover the bets of the very wealthy and I do feel the $14 Trillion dollar lost to the economy caused by the poorly regulated financial industry.
I wonder if the public will be cheering when wages really go stagnant, they lose the 40hr work week, and all the little things the unions have done for them even if they are not unionized. Nothing like having your right to collective bargaining taken away…
[QUOTE=Johnny Canal;120074]copy that, but consider that someone w/ limited tonnage license in GOM on some form of OSV can start out in a trainee slot making way more than unionized 3/m or 3a/e?
[/QUOTE]
I’ve seen references to this before on this board, can someone please explain to me why this is? What’s the point of the union then, if the wages are lower? Please, no hyperbole or sarcasm, I’m looking for a sober answer.
Also, why is there no union in the Gulf?