What should happen to KP in the 21st century?

Maritime Academy USMMA
41

[QUOTE=KPmariner;57164]Seems to me there is a considerable amount of misinformation floating around on this thread. [/QUOTE]

Please SIR, list each and every instance of misinformation put forth so far in this thread…I want to know specifically where you believe that I am not being accurate and please provide the details of why my statements are not correct so I might then be able to refute your assertions here in this forum. The blanket you attempt to cast over me is threadbare, worn and full of holes.

I do also want to say that you seem to have all the rah rah go KP talking points memorized quite nicely Mr. KingsPointymariner…bravo for your ability to repeat them rote like you do but then again you probably are one of the most distinguished alumni of that “Jewel” of a skool who writes all the pro KP propaganda and then directs it to be force fed to each little new naive midshipman like a baby is fed mashed peas. Yada yada yada…WHAT AN ABSOLUTELY FABULOUS INSTITUTION, EH KIDZ! YOU ARE SOOO LUCKY TO BE ABLE TO GO TO THE VERY TIPPY TOP BESTEST MARITIME ACADEMY IN THE WHOLE BIG WIDE WORLD! GOLLY! yada, yada, yaada, somemore…

I tell you what Mr. KPregimentalgrandiosemarinerextraordinaire…tell me how the taxpayers get their money back in 5 years from each KP graduate? Do they really each pay $80000 in Federal Income taxes each year after they graduate? Didn’t think so chum…misinformation my eye!

Btw SIR, where is it in the “selection” process that a candidate might have a family history of seafaring or just a great desire to work AT SEA for a LIVING and as a CAREER? No, the “perfect KP’er” is tall, blue eyed quarterback on their HS football team, was prom king, had a 5.0 gpa, played Mah Jong with whithered old ladies each day after school and wrote odes to the beauty of nature while on the bus each morning. That and the fact that they’d look swell in navy blue! Please also tell me with accuracy mind you, how many KP candidates actually wanted to go to one of the other Academies instead? Remember there is an honor code in effect here.

Next please

.

42

[QUOTE=KPmariner;57164]GAO reports never find “nothing” ever. [/QUOTE]

Then again you could never be a Kings Pointer using lousy grammar like that. Afterall, KP’ers are all PERFECT in everything then do…just ask one!

shame on you

43

[QUOTE=c.captain;57138]A simple quiz boys and girls:

if A=$100,000,000 per year to keep the program going at KP

and B=5000 estimated maritime academy students at ALL maritime schools at any given time

then A/B = [U][I]$20000 per year potentially available to each and every maritime student in the US

[/I][/U]so for the same amount in spent in four years at KP to create 1000 merchant marine officers, AT LEAST 20000 can be graduated from ALL the schools.

today’s question class is where the [I][U]ECONOMY [/U]is to be found here[/I]? For extra credit class, which of the two choices below more closely matches the percentage of KP grads who make their careers as seagoing merchant vessel officers? a. <10% b. >10% (hint, the correct answer is not b.)

pencils down kids…class dismissed!

.[/QUOTE]

Between 2008-2011, all the state schools graduated 2251 licensed mariners. And they graduated 2356 non-licensed maritime professionals. In the same time frame, USMMA graduated 813 licensed mariners…a full 26.5% of all academy graduated licensed mariners in the past four years came from one place. KP.

So…when you ask what the percentage of KP grads who make their careers as a seagoing merchant vessel officers…at least USMMA has a shot at getting to 50%. The State school programs can only approach 47%.

Only Great Lakes comes close…99% of their graduates have licenses. CMA, 68%, Maine 63%, SUNY 54%, Mass 47%, and Texas 19%.

I’d love to remove Texas from the calculation as an outlier, but they have the second largest student body year-to-year…only SUNY has more students, but Mass is a close third (totals for 2008-2011 show SUNY graduated 1140, Texas graduated 1048, Mass graduated 990, KP graduated 805, Maine graduated 713, CMA graduated 616, and Great Lakes graduated 100).

So, that poses two questions:

  1. Perhaps “more” state-school graduates are sea-going professionals simply because there are more state school graduates?
  2. What are the non-licensed students at the state maritime schools studying and, if the whole point is that MARAD’s funding is for “sea-going” officers, what is the ROI for the 47% that get licenses?
44

Bump: You made me erase my original reply to simply answer yours.

The real issue is, NOT the 2k, 3k, or however many numbers you quote, but how many actual JOBS are being filled by graduates.

This is an astounding number you have put out there. But knowing how few jobs there are out there it only confirms what is obvious to actual working, experienced professionals. The Academies (all of them) are more interested in keeping enrollment up, tuition out of sight, and keeping artificial employment figures up to attract new blood to (return to start of sentence) keep the rationale going.

Now to put the original figures of graduates into perspective. There are only SO many jobs in the US Merchant Marine today. I am not going to even pretend to know with any accuracy how many jobs there are. BUT, graduating 750 or so graduates each year is NOT a realistic expectation to have them all (or an acceptable portion) enter the work force. I realize that I am an ‘old dinosaur’ to you, but I can’t believe that 750 of us ‘old farts’ are getting out each year, showing the need for all these new entries.

I know you argue otherwise, but in a supply and demand system (until proven otherwise) this pump and dump philosophy to keep pouring out these graduates is silly! We have NO need to have all these ‘officers’ on the market. Even now IMO is dictating how, when, and where our officers must be trained, vetted, and licensed. This is on a worldwide basis. I do see the point of ‘having’ enough officers to fulfill the ‘mission.’ But until the country can afford (or mandate ((which would require our taxes to subsidize)) a US merchant marine fleet which ‘needs’ this amount of seamen, this is a ridiculous waste of cash.

Now to make my point. Adding to the available work force is only depressing the wages. Too many ‘qualified’ deckhands (with licenses) is making the demand shrink, which lowers wages. Isn’t this what the real premise of the ‘wall street occupiers’ is? They want real pay for a real job. But, there are only so many philosophers, artists, english majors that we need. We need laborers and actual producers of work.

“Too many chefs spoil the broth”
“Too many Chiefs, Not enough Indians”
"Paris Hilton"
Not everyone gets to be the boss.

But we seem to be encouraging anyone with the cash or the political connections to ‘demand’ a job. We don’t need more of these jobs, but more demand (for these jobs.)

Ring any bells?

45

[QUOTE=tengineer;57159]Let’s also look at the US Military, Naval and Air Force Academies. [/QUOTE]

Let’s stick to the point and eliminate the waste of taxpayer money on an institution that has long since passed its expiration date.

The military is on a PR roll at the moment thanks to a marketing and propaganda campaign that the KP alumni would love to include themselves, if anyone in the country knew who they were - except that if anyone in the country knew who or what they are we wouldn’t be having this discussion because KP would have been eliminated in the first round of base closings.

With regard to the CG academy, the CG is now a law enforcement agency and like all the others it sends its people to the growing number of law enforcement schools and military “colleges” of one sort or another that cropped up when it became obvious that the academies had become more style than function. I don’t think it is difficult to make the argument that the CG academy is truly a “me too” facility to enhance the self esteem of a handful of water cops.

KP is not alone in the waste and theater business but if anyone outside this microscopic industry knew what was going on it would be the first to go away.

46

[QUOTE=c.captain;57167].WHAT AN ABSOLUTELY FABULOUS INSTITUTION, EH KIDZ! YOU ARE SOOO LUCKY TO BE ABLE TO GO TO THE VERY TIPPY TOP BESTEST MARITIME ACADEMY IN THE WHOLE BIG WIDE WORLD! GOLLY!

Your argument went back to “waste” and the “taxpayer.” It’s clear you don’t ACTUALLY care about government waste or burden to the tax payer, otherwise you would be focused on exponentially greater problems that cost tax payers. Also, you were probably foaming at the mouth and typing madly when you wrote the above quote.

47

[QUOTE=SailorJerry;57186]Also, you were probably foaming at the mouth and typing madly when you wrote the above quote.[/QUOTE]

Actually I was laughing my ass off and still am :wink:

48

[QUOTE=c.captain;57167]Please SIR, list each and every instance of misinformation put forth so far in this thread…I want to know specifically where you believe that I am not being accurate and please provide the details of why my statements are not correct so I might then be able to refute your assertions here in this forum. The blanket you attempt to cast over me is threadbare, worn and full of holes.

I do also want to say that you seem to have all the rah rah go KP talking points memorized quite nicely Mr. KingsPointymariner…bravo for your ability to repeat them rote like you do but then again you probably are one of the most distinguished alumni of that “Jewel” of a skool who writes all the pro KP propaganda and then directs it to be force fed to each little new naive midshipman like a baby is fed mashed peas. Yada yada yada…WHAT AN ABSOLUTELY FABULOUS INSTITUTION, EH KIDZ! YOU ARE SOOO LUCKY TO BE ABLE TO GO TO THE VERY TIPPY TOP BESTEST MARITIME ACADEMY IN THE WHOLE BIG WIDE WORLD! GOLLY! yada, yada, yaada, somemore…

I tell you what Mr. KPregimentalgrandiosemarinerextraordinaire…tell me how the taxpayers get their money back in 5 years from each KP graduate? Do they really each pay $80000 in Federal Income taxes each year after they graduate? Didn’t think so chum…misinformation my eye!

Btw SIR, where is it in the “selection” process that a candidate might have a family history of seafaring or just a great desire to work AT SEA for a LIVING and as a CAREER? No, the “perfect KP’er” is tall, blue eyed quarterback on their HS football team, was prom king, had a 5.0 gpa, played Mah Jong with whithered old ladies each day after school and wrote odes to the beauty of nature while on the bus each morning. That and the fact that they’d look swell in navy blue! Please also tell me with accuracy mind you, how many KP candidates actually wanted to go to one of the other Academies instead? Remember there is an honor code in effect here.

Next please

.[/QUOTE]

Are you serious? You weaken any argument once you debase yourself with name calling. I love the self proclaimed victory, though. Nice touch. You seem to have some real issues along with a complete misunderstanding of how the system works. But that’s okay. I needed a chuckle this morning and this post fit the bill.

With regard to the neccessity of KP? Good question. I will admit that not all of the students that go through the program take full advantage of the training opportunities available, but that can be said of ANY institution or training program. Is there a need for a well rounded, educated maritime officer? Well, I think that you prove that. Is KP the most cost effective way to do it? I don’t know. I am not an economist, actuary or accountant. I can say that I received an excellent education in the four years that it took me to complete the program and I have never been out of work for more than one month in over 30 years (and that month was by choice).

I do know that when I do marine work now, it is rarely, no, never on a US flag vessel. Even when I do offshore work it is rarely on a US flag vessel, but the crews, for the most part are from the US. THAT is the larger issue that needs attention. Solve that one and any surplus of maritime officers is put to rest.

Believe me, I didn’t get into KP because I was connected. Much the same can be said for my classmates and the others that were at KP when I attended. Just about the only connected midshipmen that I saw at school were the ones that were there as expats. I don’t get the point about having a family history in seafaring; then again, I don’t get too many of your points at all.

49

[QUOTE=cmakin;57190]With regard to the neccessity of KP? Is KP the most cost effective way to do it? I don’t know.[/QUOTE]

THAT is the real question here and I think you have answered it for us. Even a KP grad might see that the academy is redundant and continuing the program does not make economic sense. Saying you don’t know says you have doubts. Don’t sit on the fence, either the taxpayers spending $400k per grad makes economic sense or it doesn’t?

50

[QUOTE=cmakin;57190]I love the self proclaimed victory, though. Nice touch.[/QUOTE]

Thanks, but I’m still waiting for Mr. KPmostawesomemariner to respond. If he doesn’t it is a victory for me, but if he does, I will rebutt him as I rebutt all comers. This is a debate in an open forum between mariners (or at least mariner wannabes). I take a position based on my knowledge of a subject and the facts on the record which in the case of KP is more than adequate to support all my contentions.

51

[QUOTE=c.captain;57191]THAT is the real question here and I think you have answered it for us. Even a KP grad might see that the academy is redundant and continuing the program does not make economic sense. Saying you don’t know says you have doubts. Don’t sit on the fence, either the taxpayers spending $400k per grad makes economic sense or it doesn’t?[/QUOTE]

There are certainly other factors to consider other than a pure “cost effetiveness” standpoint. There certainly IS a reason to have a training establishment that is not only challenging just to get into (and it is, in spite of what you have posted) and challenging to complete. You seem to beat the drum that many KPers (myself included, of course) do NOT remain at sea. Well, the Mission of the Academy, at least when I was there, was to ". . . graduate leaders in the maritime industry . . " which is beyond a long term seagoing career. I have kept in the maritime industry and also overlap in the Energy/offshore industry. I have certainly paid more than enough in taxes to have covered my education, and a few others to boot, I imagine. One thing that I have found having come ashore is that what I thought I knew about the maritime industry when I was sailing is not at all what I think about it now. It is hard to see the forest for the trees when sailing.

52

[QUOTE=cmakin;57195]There are certainly other factors to consider other than a pure “cost effetiveness” standpoint. There certainly IS a reason to have a training establishment that is not only challenging just to get into (and it is, in spite of what you have posted) and challenging to complete. [/QUOTE]

What are those OTHER factors and is THE reason to have such an expensive “training establishment”? Please do tell…

[QUOTE=cmakin;57195]You seem to beat the drum that many KPers (myself included, of course) do NOT remain at sea. Well, the Mission of the Academy, at least when I was there, was to ". . . graduate leaders in the maritime industry . . " which is beyond a long term seagoing career. [/QUOTE]

Just because it is in some mission statement of KP doesn’t make it valid. KP is supposed funded because the DoD needs a “pool” of unlimited tonnage mariners that they can put their hands on in case WWIII breaks out. To fullfill that purpose, KP grads should ALL be sailing with the skills, knowledge and current licenses so they can quickly jump to a haze gray ship when the balloon goes up. I do not believe I need to fund the education of an admiralty lawyer, tanker broker, power plant operator.or ship surveyor.

[QUOTE=cmakin;57195]I have kept in the maritime industry and also overlap in the Energy/offshore industry.[/QUOTE]

You bring up a quite interesting observation…how does KP educate and prepare its cadets to work in the offshore energy industry which is plainly where the shipboard jobs are today and the future? Not only do they provide an extremely expensive education but they don’t even prepare their grads to enter the “real” maritime industry. Not too many KP’ers on the drillships I can tell you.

[QUOTE=cmakin;57195]I have certainly paid more than enough in taxes to have covered my education, and a few others to boot, I imagine.[/QUOTE]

Unless you have paid some vast sum more in taxes than you would have paid if you had not received the free ride at KP, how can you say that you have paid the taxpayer back? Doesn’t a state school grad pay taxes equivalent to a KP’er over the course of their careers? No sir, that assertion of yours doesn’t scour.

Hmm…very interesting indeed. I wonder where this will continue to go? .

Next player please…step right up boys and girls! There’s always a prize and never a loser except everybody who pays federal income tax but who cares about them anyway?

53

[QUOTE=c.captain;57200]What are those OTHER factors and is THE reason to have such an expensive “training establishment”? Please do tell…

Just because it is in some mission statement of KP doesn’t make it valid. KP is supposed funded because the DoD needs a “pool” of unlimited tonnage mariners that they can put their hands on in case WWIII breaks out. To fullfill that purpose, KP grads should ALL be sailing with the skills, knowledge and current licenses so they can quickly jump to a haze gray ship when the balloon goes up. I do not believe I need to fund the education of an admiralty lawyer, tanker broker, power plant operator.or ship surveyor.

You bring up a quite interesting observation…how does KP educate and prepare its cadets to work in the offshore energy industry which is plainly where the shipboard jobs are today and the future? Not only do they provide an extremely expensive education but they don’t even prepare their grads to enter the “real” maritime industry. Not too many KP’ers on the drillships I can tell you.

Unless you have paid some vast sum more in taxes than you would have paid if you had not received the free ride at KP, how can you say that you have paid the taxpayer back? Doesn’t a state school grad pay taxes equivalent to a KP’er over the course of their careers? No sir, that assertion of yours doesn’t scour.

Hmm…very interesting indeed. I wonder where this will continue to go? .

Next player please…step right up boys and girls! There’s always a prize and never a loser except everybody who pays federal income tax but who cares about them anyway?[/QUOTE]

Again you display your ignorance and yet claim victory. You must be a big hit in front of the mirror. I also see you declined to include any response to my comment with regard to your limited perspective of the industry as a whole. THAT and your obsessive hatred for KP really weaken anything constructive that you might have to say (write).

54

Thanks for the disparaging comments C.Cap, clearly Sailor Jerry hit the nail on the head with you. You clearly just have an axe to grind with Kings Point. I’m assuming your application was rejected, you weren’t qualified, or had some other blemish that made you ineligible. As for my family, we have been sailing since Peter Stuyvesant landed in NY. Father, grandfather, great grandfather, keep going…. Kings Point is not about taking a random star football player and making him a sailor, unless of course that’s what he wants to do with his life. It is about having one institution that serves as the pre-eminent facility that attracts the best and brightest and are willing to become obligated to the government for 10 years in return for their education. You don’t have to believe they are the best and brightest, just feel free to compare the average files of whoever you purport to have better candidates and compare them to the midshipmen at Kings Point and that should pretty much end the debate. The state schools all have the ability to offer free tuition to hot shots who want to apply just like any other college. There is no need for a Naval Academy, West point, Air Force or Coast guard either since there are plenty of ROTC students who could fill those billets for the military, although I am not sure I would want the military run by ROTC Berkley Grads from the 60’s and 70’s . heck, the Naval Academy football coach makes seven figures. That’s a good use of dollars.

Be that as it may, the problem here is with Congress and their complete inattention to the maritime industry. If the Pakistani government realizes they need a maritime stimulus program, why doesn’t the U.S know this? Its not rocket science. I tried back in the 80’s to start a U.S Flag shipping company and got nothing but resistance from MARAD. It was far easier to operate foreign flag ships rather than run over flaming broken glass with MARAD. Its about making money pure and simple. If MARAD and Congress wanted to encourage the industry, its easy enough to do. The problem is MARAD trips over their own feet trying to figure out how to buy toilet paper for their office and Congress just flat out doesn’t know ANYTHING about the industry and what is needed or why it’s important. If there is a decent return on investment for a U.S Flag merchant fleet then there will be strong incentive to build and foster growth but with obstacles, nothing but heartache. As for repaying taxpayers, the obligation is 10 years and yes our grads who sail rather than go active duty actually do make enough to pay back the taxpayers in well under the obligation period. Oh, and yes there are jobs to be had in the maritime industry afloat that do pay well. They don’t look like the deep sea liner jobs or breakbulk jobs of 40 years ago, but frankly the government doesn’t care what you sail on as long as you are keeping your license current so that you can be called up in case of emergency. As for your comment about the Persian Gulf War and graduates not being recalled, those recall letters were printed and put into envelopes but were not mailed. It was not necessary because enough mariners volunteered to fill the slots and did a great job doing it. There was a serious manpower shortage and by the time they filled the void, some of the folks sailing as officers from “other places” could not perform simple functions like plot latitude and longitude correctly, do basic ships stability, or even define the term relative bearing.

55

[QUOTE=cmakin;57202]Again you display your ignorance and yet claim victory. You must be a big hit in front of the mirror. I also see you declined to include any response to my comment with regard to your limited perspective of the industry as a whole. THAT and your obsessive hatred for KP really weaken anything constructive that you might have to say (write).[/QUOTE]

Please just answer the questions SIR…it’s not that hard, all you have to do is be right in your claims and be able to back them up. Go ahead, give it a try…even a KP’er can do it!

56

[QUOTE=KPmariner;57203]Thanks for the disparaging comments C.Cap, clearly Sailor Jerry hit the nail on the head with you. You clearly just have an axe to grind with Kings Point. I’m assuming your application was rejected, you weren’t qualified, or had some other blemish that made you ineligible.[/QUOTE]

No your mostexcellentKPness, I just like poking sharp (Kings) Pointy sticks at overinflated balloons!

Pop goes the weasel

btw, I’ll rebutt your hollow claims soon…please standby

57

$125,000 (cost of the education when I went) divided by 350,000,000 (population of the country) equals $0.00.035 per american for the cost of my education.

PM me your address. I’ll send you a penny and you’ll get a 285% return on your investment into me. How’s that for economics.

58

[QUOTE=KPEngineer;57207]$125,000 (cost of the education when I went) divided by 350,000,000 (population of the country) equals $0.00.035 per american for the cost of [U][I][B]my[/B][/I][/U] education.

PM me your address. I’ll send you a penny and you’ll get a 285% return on your investment into me. How’s that for economics.[/QUOTE]

Your attempt a humor is pathetically tepid dishwater…please rebutt directly my claim that the $100M divided into 5000 maritime students in the entire United States of Ameruca equals $20000 per student per year? Eff your pennies and YOUR education…yup you certainly got YOURS now didn’t you? Isn’t that what’s it all about for KP’ers…getting theirs! MarAd (more money please), KP’s Administration (who can I funnel all this cash to today?), the Alumni (more donations please) and the cadets (I demand MY free education!).

.

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[QUOTE=KPmariner;57203]As for my family, we have been sailing since Peter Stuyvesant landed in NY. Father, grandfather, great grandfather, keep going…. [/QUOTE]

Yeah and my ancestors were going to sea when Venice was a great maritime power (seriously)

[QUOTE=KPmariner;57203]Kings Point is not about taking a random star football player and making him a sailor, unless of course that’s what he wants to do with his life. [/QUOTE]

And every Kings Point candidate knows all about the merchant marine and maritime industry before they apply? Besides, any random star football player wouldn’t think for one minute abourt going to a school with a shitty Division III team like KP’s. In case you missed it…[K](http://Kings Point football drops season opener to Johns Hopkins, 45-14)[ings Point football drops season opener to Johns Hopkins, 45-14](http://Kings Point football drops season opener to Johns Hopkins, 45-14) but that’s ok because everybody knows that Johns Hopkins has a powerhouse team that dominates the Big Toe League. Those Med students can just be madmen on the field![](http://Kings Point football drops season opener to Johns Hopkins, 45-14)[QUOTE=KPmariner;57203]It is about having one institution that serves as the pre-eminent facility [/QUOTE]

KP is only pre-eminent in the eyes of KP, its students and its alum. To the rest of the US maritime industry it is very far from that (do you want to really know what the rest of the industry thinks about KP’ers? I mean do you REALLY want to know…I mean it may burn your little ears!) and on a global scale it doesn’t even rank or Kings Pointers would be hot property all over the world, but they AREN’T! They aren’t even hot property in the US unless it is some company like Tyco or one of the brokerages in Stamford or law firms in Houston or at MarAd or MSC. The real working maritime industry DOESN’T WANT KP’ers. They are prima donas filled with themselves and their self importance and on top of all that they’re not even very good merchant officers (although there as SOME very good ones with real seafaring credentials but they are a VERY small minority).
.

[QUOTE=KPmariner;57203]that attracts the best and brightest and are willing to become obligated to the government for 10 years in return for their education. You don’t have to believe they are the best and brightest, just feel free to compare the average files of whoever you purport to have better candidates and compare them to the midshipmen at Kings Point and that should pretty much end the debate. [/QUOTE]

The best and the brightest how exactly? Oh, you already answered that one…football QB, gpa, little old ladies, blah, blah. You did not answer my question about where a true desire to really work on ships enters the process or perhaps prior experience? You also have not answered my question of how many KP’ers really wanted to go to one of the “real” academies but had to settle for the USMMA instead? I sail with graduates of ALL the maritime schools and I would say by far the most competent merchant officers are graduates of the state schools and they have good attitudes as well although they are somehow all becoming such young’ns these daze.

[QUOTE=KPmariner;57203]The state schools all have the ability to offer free tuition to hot shots who want to apply just like any other college. There is no need for a Naval Academy, West point, Air Force or Coast guard either since there are plenty of ROTC students who could fill those billets for the military, although I am not sure I would want the military run by ROTC Berkley Grads from the 60’s and 70’s . heck, the Naval Academy football coach makes seven figures. That’s a good use of dollars. [/QUOTE]

You have a problem with UC Berkley? Are they not smart enough or capable of being leaders or are they too LIBERAL? GAWD FORBID! Also must a person be a graduate of one of the vaulted service academies to be a accomplished leader? General Colin Powell entered the Army via ROTC but I suppose you have a problem with Colin Powell and think he is too liberal too.

As far the the purpose or value of the other service academies goes, they are all institutions that support specific branches of the armed forces although I believe that the graduates of those schools should have a MUCH longer service commitment that they currently have. 10 years active duty and 10 years reserves MINIMUM! As far as waste at each of the other academies goes…it’s the eff’ing military for Christ’s sake, money means nothing to their culture and hasn’t since WWII. KP is just suckling that same enormous big TIT! KP graduates Naval Reserve officers FIRST and merchant marine officers SECOND. Why on earth does it have a program which is run like a little mini-me Annapolis, right down the uniforms and its ridiculous “regiment”? I’ll bet you were the Regimental Executive Officer…(the Regimental Commander wouldn’t soil himself here).

[QUOTE=KPmariner;57203]Be that as it may, the problem here is with Congress and their complete inattention to the maritime industry. If the Pakistani government realizes they need a maritime stimulus program, why doesn’t the U.S know this? Its not rocket science. I tried back in the 80’s to start a U.S Flag shipping company and got nothing but resistance from MARAD. It was far easier to operate foreign flag ships rather than run over flaming broken glass with MARAD. Its about making money pure and simple. If MARAD and Congress wanted to encourage the industry, its easy enough to do. The problem is MARAD trips over their own feet trying to figure out how to buy toilet paper for their office and Congress just flat out doesn’t know ANYTHING about the industry and what is needed or why it’s important. If there is a decent return on investment for a U.S Flag merchant fleet then there will be strong incentive to build and foster growth but with obstacles, nothing but heartache.[/QUOTE]

Not germain to this thread…start a new one to discuss these issues please and I will agree with you 1000%!

[QUOTE=KPmariner;57203]As for repaying taxpayers, the obligation is 10 years and yes our grads who sail rather than go active duty actually do make enough to pay back the taxpayers in well under the obligation period. Oh, and yes there are jobs to be had in the maritime industry afloat that do pay well. They don’t look like the deep sea liner jobs or breakbulk jobs of 40 years ago, but frankly the government doesn’t care what you sail on as long as you are keeping your license current so that you can be called up in case of emergency. [/QUOTE]

Please tell me specifically how KP grads “actually do make enough to pay back the taxpayers in well under the obligation period”? You provide no proof to this claim whatsoever and before were saying that the taxpayers were made whole within 5 years…now it’s 10. Which is correct and who came up with this nonsense besides yourself (or MarAd who’s undoubtedly biased) and how is it based? Please provide supporting facts please.

[QUOTE=KPmariner;57203]As for your comment about the Persian Gulf War and graduates not being recalled, those recall letters were printed and put into envelopes but were not mailed. It was not necessary because enough mariners volunteered to fill the slots and did a great job doing it. There was a serious manpower shortage and by the time they filled the void, some of the folks sailing as officers from “other places” could not perform simple functions like plot latitude and longitude correctly, do basic ships stability, or even define the term relative bearing.[/QUOTE]

But the ships DID get manned and goods DID get delivered and KP was not needed now was it? Please also tell me how on earth the “call up” of MMR KP’ers would have gone when all the RRF ships broken out for Desert Shield were operated by private companies with civilian union crews? I can just picture some crusty old AB on the gangway watch doing a double take watching little Timmy coming aboard with his MMR eagle on his dress blues saluting the ensign of the stern and reporting for duty with his orders! Hell, I’d have whipped it out and pissed right on his shoes. What would the other officers thought…a green KP’er with little or no sailing experience (real seafaring KP’ers would already be aboard and working) and the ship pilots and tanker brokers and lawyers and instructors would all have told MarAd to take a flying leap! No way in hell that would have washed then and it wouldn’t wash today and KP maintains its bloated funding for WHAT reason exactly? Hmmm?

I asked cmakin to just answer my questions…now I am asking the same thing of you?

Btw, your user name implies you are a sailing merchant mariner…is this so or are your just faking it? Many here already know that I am master of a drillship, might I ask what are you sir?

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Pleeeaaaaaase … Now your going to get all high and mighty on us? You came in here with an obvious agenda and a preconceived idea. You have trashed anyone who does not already agree with you and presented yourself as though no other point of view is valid. Do you walk with a limp because of that chip on your shoulder? If I had not seen you around here before and read any of your other posts I would say you are a troll. Your behavior on this thread I consider very troll like.

I’m done with this thread and regret wasting my time here.