What should happen to KP in the 21st century?

Ok, since this is a hot topic which needs it own thread…here goes

I think everybody here already knows how I feel so I needn’t bother repeating myself unless I am pushed…so don’t push me LEST YE BE PREPARED!

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Another option: Add spell check to poll setup. Scool. Ha ha ha ha.

[QUOTE=dougpine;57028]Another option: Add spell check to poll setup. Scool. Ha ha ha ha.[/QUOTE]

oops…gCaptain doesn’t seem to have a way to go back and make corrections to polls. It shouldn’t be scool but skool…my bad! So I am the product of a shitty edumacation…not like those Aikademi kidz

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[QUOTE=c.captain;57029]oops…gCaptain doesn’t seem to have a way to go back and make corrections to polls. It shouldn’t be scool but skool…my bad! So I am the product of a bad edumacation…[/QUOTE]

I’m still looking for the pole…

[QUOTE=NAUTICART;57031]I’m still looking for the pole…[/QUOTE]

Ha! You almost got me on that won.

The right question is: if we are going to spend $100 million dollars annually to support the merchant marine what is the best way to do it? Is the problem that we are not pumping out enough third mates and engineers? If that is the case the money should be used to help students with their tuition at all schools rather then pay the full freight at one and have the other schools supported by tuition and the states.

I am currently supporting the system in three ways. I am paying for my son’s tuition at Maine Maritime, I am supporting Maine Maritime by paying my taxes in the State of Maine. In addition I am paying the tuition of the King’s Point students via my federal taxes.

What exactly am I getting for the money I am sending to KP aside from competition for fewer and fewer jobs?

K.C.

[B]I am looking to see the a more broadly funded source for the US Merchant marine. Such as tuition aid/assistance from [B][U]FASFA.[/U][/B] This federal aid helps dislocated, layed off etc. workers also. There isn’t a huge complexity involved into applying, but researching the colleges that have a federal “code” that the college uses in order to receive payments for tuition/books from the gov. And how can you take courses when your offshore? On-line, well then you have to individually research the ones that have online courses that apply to your needs. It get kinda cumbersome when it comes to MMC though.[/B]

[U]Workforce Investment Act (WIA)[/U]

The Workforce Investment Act of 1998 was designed to improve the quality of the workforce, enhance productivity and competitiveness, and to reduce welfare dependency. Eligibility is based on three categories of individuals: Adults, Dislocated Workers, and Youth. Adults are any individuals over 18 years of age who may not fit the criteria for other categories.

Dislocated workers are individuals who become unemployed and are eligible to receive Unemployment Compensation or have established an attachment to the labor market. Also included in the Dislocated Worker category are displaced homemakers. Individuals who are [I]employed[/I] but need services to obtain or [I]retain employment[/I], which leads to self-sufficiency, may be eligible for assistance. Youth services participants are individuals from 14 years to 21 years of age, who are low income and face one or more of the specified barriers.

Explorer’s Guide Maritime Training is approved as an eligible training provider through the Bay Area Workforce Development Board (ID # 674-001). Those who qualify for WIA programs can now receive the necessary education for a merchant mariner’s license (Captain’s license) to get back into the workforce. Displaced workers and other adults affected by lay-offs or business closings in the economic downturn now have a chance to get their Captain’s license and a new start in an exciting career field. The Wisconsin approval also permits people in other areas of the country to work with their local workforce development boards and case workers to determine if they qualify for this job retraining opportunity…

[B]That is an example, on a smaller scale that may not apply to you, but it’s a start for those who are not obtaining (or can afford) credentials from an academy. If they could approve more smaller training facilities, like Quality Maritime, to get your radar endorsement, for instance…(you can take while your not working offshore) I think that could be of some help.

There are plenty of people that could use the help, as we read all the time here. I’m not saying where KP should use their funding, but If this scope of employment were more recogonized, there would be a more levered playing/application field. Oh let’s not forget all the work and extra “cost” behind government billing/reimbursement for tuition’s, I don’t blame the “smaller than - federally funded acadamies” from not wanting to participate.

[I]Well, at least for a start, push for reimbursement for someone that paid for their courses/books, from a USCG approved training program. After all, That is a governing body.[/I]

I guess the upshot is, the money spent at KP is a proverbial drop in the bucket compared to FAFSA. Some states are beginning to include the smaller licensures, and that’s a good start, haws pipe isn’t a bad way to go, just seems to be only option/limitation because of funding.

Anyway, I’m way off the KP POLL here, but can’t say I’m first on gCapt. for doing that.

It is a HUGE job, approaching, appealing, effectively communicating with (etc.) the federal gov, I KNOW.

Not speaking for the smaller “qualified” training centers, They wouldn’t have to deal with the bureaucracy, and the maritime student would. Which, would be worth it if that were there passion/livelihood to obtain, upgrade and continue to educate themselves.

Wish I had more time to “eblaberate” : ) [/B]

Here’s a simple one…as an option to making KP grads do active duty for 4 years after graduating, offer them a contract to serve on MSC ships for 8 years. MSC gets desperatetly needed bodies, the grads get jobs that pays well and also be able to upgrade their licenses! A WIN for grads, a WIN for MSC and a WIN for taxpayers! Simply brilliant ah say ah say…

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MSC has no trouble filling third jobs.

Why should anything “happen” to KP? Since it is a “hot topic” I can only assume that the premise to this thread is related to current events. Fair enough, anything that remotely reeks of scandal will raise that type of question.

I would contend though that the real question then should be what should “happen” to MARAD? I don’t know how much I really know or how close to the truth my suspicions lie, but it sure seems to me that MARAD has committed the greater sins here. Not to say that everyone at KP is blameless, but if a few bad individuals was enough to shut down a government organization than we should get rid of the Office of the President, the Congress, all the branches of the Military and probably every other government agency too.

No KPEng…this topic came from the earlier post concerning the dismissal of Adm. Greene but it leaves the issue of the scandals there to be considered by each reader on their own as to whether it effects their opinion on the subject at hand. The poll asks for the reader’s opinion if they believe KP is a relevent and meaningful institution wothy of continued funding, if so, then should the graduates be made to perform 4 years of active duty in the Naval Reserve or another branch of the Armed Forces before beginning their private commercial careers or lastly, if KP is so costly and irrelevent to our national maritime industry that its current program should be ended and the school either converted to another use or to be sold outright. I’d have added the option that the students should reimburse the Federal Government for the cost of their education, but nobody could (or should) pay those kind of astronomical firgures. KP costs the taxpayers way too much for what they get.

Mind you, the idea of ending the USMMA program is not so dire as you and other KP’ers want us to believe. It is rather akin to a military base closing. The US maritime industry can get along just fine without KP.

What should happen to MarAd is yet another hot topic worthy of discussion in a seperate thread itself. Talking about closing down the entire government if your own whacked out Tea Party issue and plays NO PART in THIS discussion.

Thank you sir…

[QUOTE=KPEngineer;57062]Why should anything “happen” to KP? Since it is a “hot topic” I can only assume that the premise to this thread is related to current events. Fair enough, anything that remotely reeks of scandal will raise that type of question.

I would contend though that the real question then should be what should “happen” to MARAD? I don’t know how much I really know or how close to the truth my suspicions lie, but it sure seems to me that MARAD has committed the greater sins here. Not to say that everyone at KP is blameless, but if a few bad individuals was enough to shut down a government organization than we should get rid of the Office of the President, the Congress, all the branches of the Military and probably every other government agency too.[/QUOTE]

The U.S. maritime industry has a lot of problems however an access to a fresh supply of graduates from maritime academies is not one of them. In fact if you are a recent graduate the oversupply is the problem. The fact that non KP graduates have to pay for their tuition as well the competition is to add insult to injury.

This has nothing to do with any scandal, it was true before, it remains true now.

K.C.

The original post and/or title to the poll and thread referenced Adm Greene. C.Captain has edited his initial post at least three times if not more and it used to reference the “other” thread that was closed. Trying to pretend that the current situation at KP has nothing to do with this thread is a bit revisionist.

You will never find me arguing that KP is vital to the industry or that it is an efficient means of ensuring a continuous supply of licensed officers because frankly, I don’t believe either to be true. But I also don’t see that at its core mission. I don’t look at KP from the industry perspective, but from the government perspective. I spent several years working for uncle sam, some of those at MSC, and over 10 in the Merchant Marine community of the Navy so I look at it based on my experiences there. I see KP really there to ensure a steady supply of unlimited licensed mariners [B]that the government can get its hands on[/B] should we need another WWII level of sealift effort. I think that the expenditure gets harder to justify as ships get bigger and crews get smaller, but like Steamer said in the other thread DoD still wants to refight WWII. As long as they do, from the government perspective, there is a need for that supply of licensed mariners. You could certainly say that it would be more efficient to just increase the number of state school students getting money and incurring an obligation, but I think there is a little bit of an unknown there as to how many would actually sign up and the government doesn’t like unknowns. They would rather spend the extra money to have the school to guarantee the bodies. Not saying its the right way to do it, just that it is what it is. The truth is that we don’t disagree as much as you seem to think. If you go back and read any of my other posts on the subject with an open mind you will see that.

C.C - I think your idea of requiring MSC service is actually a pretty good one. I would suggest including an option to do some of it sailing commercial. Maybe six years if its all with MSC or 4/4 if you want to do some commercial. Feel free to steal that one when you write your congressman :wink:

K.C - I can see where some feelings might get hurt, but quite frankly since everyone has equal chance to go to KP and many who go to state schools never even consider it, I fail to see how they were truly injured and why I should worry about any perceived insult. Sorry if that sounds harsh, but life isn’t fair either.

[QUOTE=KPEngineer;57068]I see KP really there to ensure a steady supply of unlimited licensed mariners [B]that the government can get its hands on[/B] should we need another WWII level of sealift effort.[/QUOTE]

Gulf War I in 1990-91 was probably as close to an “emergency” sealift as we shall ever see and not one KP graduate was “called up” to man the RRF fleet. While is was a stretch to make happen, all the mariners came from the private sector. I know because I was one of them.

The MMR is a joke…the Navy has no idea what it is and how it ever would be used. That program like KP needs to be buried deep in the ground!

[QUOTE=c.captain;57071]Gulf War I in 1990-91 was probably as close to an “emergency” sealift as we shall ever see and not one KP graduate was “called up” to man the RRF fleet. While is was a stretch to make happen, all the mariners came from the private sector. I know because I was one of them.[/QUOTE]When it comes to the government, the reality is irrelevant. When it comes to Defense Readiness, all that matters is what exists on paper. Defense Readiness is not measured against a sealift level of GWI but WWII. I worked at MSC and I drilled at JFCOM … I’ve seen the metrics. Don’t get me wrong, I’m not saying you are not 100% right and I am not saying I disagree with you. All I am trying to say is that there is more to it than meets the eye and it is not as simple as looking at what is going on in private industry or even recent history if you want to make a serious effort at making any kind of change to the status quo.

The MMR is a joke…the Navy has no idea what it is and how it ever would be used. That program like KP needs to be buried deep in the ground!
Actually its SSO now and about 10 years ago this was absolutely true. You used to be able to pretty much do whatever you wanted for your reserve duty. You barely had to keep the Navy in the loop on what you were doing. I have seen more than one guy show up to a Navy function in a USMS uniform and one even had his cover device upside down. I know lots of people just never did anything with no repercussions.

Today it is nowhere near reality. Read the new program instruction. There is a real training plain that Officers are measured against. If you are not up to speed, you don’t get your annual two weeks. If you do not keep up with your annual PRT, Physical and General Military Training you don’t get your annual two weeks. There is very little choice left in what you do and where you go for your two weeks. If you are going to be in the IRR, then you are expected to be sailing and they keep track of how many days a year. If its not enough, then you are pushed towards SELRES with a real MOB billet. If you are working shoreside, I’m not even sure they let you be in the IRR anymore. Big Navy definitely knows who the SSO is. Just look at the annual selection list from the Command Board and see how many SSOs are on it and a good number are outside of community billets.

[QUOTE=KPEngineer;57068]

K.C - I can see where some feelings might get hurt, but quite frankly since everyone has equal chance to go to KP and many who go to state schools never even consider it, I fail to see how they were truly injured and why I should worry about any perceived insult. Sorry if that sounds harsh, but life isn’t fair either.[/QUOTE]

Flooding the market with annual crop of third mates and third engineers is going to depress wages and increase unemployment in the industry, that has nothing to do with anyone’s feelings it’s a economic fact. How much money has been lost by the state guys and others who paid for their own education and then had to face the oversupply of unlimited licensed officers? Not only lowered wages but lost wages due to periods of unemployment?

As far as an equal chance my last cadet was the son of a river pilot. Are you saying his chances of getting in were the same as the the AB studying his Murphy books in his room after watch? It is not even a serious argument.

If they are in fact tightening up on the obligation side of it that is good. It still doesn’t change the fact that spending $100 million a year to produce ship officers when there are no ships to speak of makes no sense.

No need to apologize, I wouldn’t characterize your remarks as harsh at all.

K.C.

The Laws of Economics apply to everyone. KPers are not somehow immune just because of how our education is paid for. Sure, I’ll agree it is less painful if you don’t have student loans to pay off, but if that is our logic lets get rid of all the rich kids whose parents paid for their college. Lets give any open jobs to the guy who has the most student loans to pay back. Its a cyclical industry, I’m sure you don’t need me to tell you there are good times and bad. Technology has a greater impact, there are less ships and smaller crews. There will always be downward pressure on wages. How many years ago did Jimmy Buffet say “My occupational hazard being my occupations just not around”?

Are you saying that same AB has as equal a chance of getting into any of the state schools? That would not be a serious argument either. If an AB wants to go to ANY maritime academy, studying Murphy books isn’t going to help him. He should be taking distance learning courses in college subjects. The academies are Universities after all so he should be preparing for college.

There are a lot bigger issues facing the industry than Kings Point’s existence. Lets deal with all the Jones Act waivers that go on in the gulf while US Mariners are sitting on the beach unemployed. How many guys are losing their livelihoods because of all the disfunctions in Martinsburg. Lets get the drilling permit process back on track. Those have more of an impact on everyone than 150 or so new KPers looking for work every year.

[QUOTE=KPEngineer;57086]There are a lot bigger issues facing the industry than Kings Point’s existence.[/QUOTE]

Yes, there are many bigger issues to be corrected in the maritime industry than the questionality of maintaining KP, but that does not negate that the fundimental reasons that justifies the Academy’s continued funding by the taxpayers is no longer valid in 2011 whether or not that the Navy and MarAd believe otherwise. The security and defence of the USA no longer needs a pool of mariners to be available to fight some imaginary new World War III. Your premise that is why there still needs to be a KP because the Navy wants one is as hollow and empty as Kim Kardashian’s head. Remember that we are talking about $100M a year here! The US is going broke and the Navy Department and MarAd must start to suck it up and get by with less. Tell me something…anything that is more redundant and makes even less sense than the Federal Government funding forever a US Merchant Marine Academy?

Btw, thanks KPEng for mentioning the waivers in the GoM which are costing hundreds of American mariners good paying jobs! Glad to know that there are others who also care.

Why does the USA need a US Naval, Military, Air Force, Merchant Marine or Coast Guard Academy? Truth is the US does not need these academies in this day of an “all volunteer” armed forces. Yes, there is a minimal obligation for the free education but the same could be accomplished at less cost thru the state colleges. Truth be told, historically the volunteers from state universities who serve as officers in the various branches of the military have performed as admirably as any academy graduate. If the US military was dependent upon the academies for providing the best leaders for the US military they would be in sad shape as most take their education and leave ASAP… BUT, as long as the army, navy and coast guard are supported by our tax dollars I feel the US Merchant Marine should be also. Do no forget that on a percentage basis more US merchant mariners were killed in WW II than any other service. WE, the US merchant mariner, should be supported both by education and policy as much as any other branches of service.

Now you’re evading the subject…it is KP that is the subject of this discussion not the other academies nor the Defence Department budget. The one thing that must be remembered are that the other Academies individually educate yound men and women to serve as officers in their chosen branch of the uniformed Armed Forces…KP does NOT do that and don’t tell me the committment to the SOS (sorry SSO) is equivalent. $400K for a Naval Reservist of limited value is too much money for the taxpayer to pay.