What should happen to KP in the 21st century?

[QUOTE=tengineer;57102]. Do no forget that on a percentage basis more US merchant mariners were killed in WW II than any other service. WE, the US merchant mariner, should be supported both by education and policy as much as any other branches of service.[/QUOTE]

Do today’s KPs see themselves as heirs of the heroes of the Battle of the Atlantic? Don’t be surprised if not everyone sees things the same way.

I wouldn’t invite comparisons with what I do in the commercial merchant marine today with what, say, a marine lieutenant directing the fire of a 81 mm mortar did during the second battle of Fallujah. Some people might think it is a little over the top.

K.C.

Partially yes, KPers are the heirs of the Battle of the Atlantic. KP does have the distinction of being the only academy with its own Battle Standard. One earned by the students themselves unlike the DoD Academies which fly the service’s Battle Standard. 142 Midshipmen were killed in WWII. Thats Midshipmen … not graduates. KP continues to be the only Academy which sends students into areas deemed “hostile fire zones” though none that I am aware of are directing mortar teams in combat.

I definitely think that KP needs to make some changes. The industry that its graduates enter is very different today than it was 20 years ago. When I was in school almost no one talked about anything but deep sea. Almost no one that I recall went to work on OSVs or in the Tug/Barge segment of the industry. Today a fair amount of them do and there isn’t anything that I see the school doing to prepare them for the differences. There have been some small changes over the years, a few majors have come and gone, but I think the school itself finally realizes they have to take a hard look at themselves and do more than tinker at the edges. That was the point of the Strategic Plan they are developing. I would like to see what they come up with before I commit to any course of action regarding its future.

[QUOTE=c.captain;57110]Now you’re evading the subject…it is KP that is the subject of this discussion not the other academies nor the Defence Department budget. The one thing that must be remembered are that the other Academies individually educate yound men and women to serve as officers in their chosen branch of the uniformed Armed Forces…KP does NOT do that and don’t tell me the committment to the SOS (sorry SSO) is equivalent. $400K for a Naval Reservist of limited value is too much money for the taxpayer to pay.[/QUOTE]

Would you have gone to KP if you could have? I would have. There are better ways to trim the budget than eliminating an excellent school is all I’m saying. Did some KP’er do something unnatural to you in your youth or something?
tengineer

tengineer…now you are evading the subject. The subject is if KP worth the cost? I say it is not and the reasons everything that KP is supposedly funded today for are no longer valid…PERIOD!

KPengineer…WWII and tbe Battle of the Atlantic have NOTHING to do with the reason that KP continues to be funded and is not germain to this discussion. Maybe the very few students at Annapolis and West Point did not serve or die in combat during WWII but more than 400,000 young men did! Almost all those men were the same age as the average KP Midshipman during the War. KP’s vaunted Battle Standard is rather insignificant when you look at those numbers. Btw, by the the time KP was opened, the Battle of the Atlantic was over (May 1943 generally being considered as the turning point in that fight). The members of the Corps of Cadets who died were killed before the school as actually dedicated.

C.Captain - I responded to something specific that Kennebec Captain said and did not say it has anything to do with KPs funding. I have never once in this thread or the other made any statements that any of the issues I have spoken of are intended to justify KPs existence or to continue funding it. Are you even reading these posts at all or does the skill of reading comprehension escape you? Are you so blinded by whatever emotion drives you that you see things that aren’t there? Try a little better history research too, 1943 is just when they moved to the current location. The US Merchant Marine Cadet Corps was founded in 1938 and Cadets were being lost to enemy fire in 1942.

[QUOTE=c.captain;57115]tengineer…now you are evading the subject. The subject is if KP worth the cost? I say it is not and the reasons everything that KP is supposedly funded today for are no longer valid…PERIOD!

KPengineer…WWII and tbe Battle of the Atlantic have NOTHING to do with the reason that KP continues to be funded and is not germain to this discussion. Maybe the very few students at Annapolis and West Point did not serve or die in combat during WWII but more than 400,000 young men did! Almost all those men were the same age as the average KP Midshipman during the War. KP’s vaunted Battle Standard is rather insignificant when you look at those numbers. Btw, by the the time KP was opened, the Battle of the Atlantic was over (May 1943 generally being considered as the turning point in that fight). The members of the Corps of Cadets who died were killed before the school as actually dedicated.[/QUOTE]

C/ Captain, I agree with you almost 100% of the time on any post you have made in the past, I’ll just respectfully disagree with you on this one. Sure they could reduce costs, so could almost all state supported schools of any type but USMMA gives an excellent education to many folks who could not have afforded a similar education elsewhere. However, I would like to see the congressional appointment eliminated and a competitive exam instituted for applicants. That is a change I believe most people would support.
tengineer

I like that idea!

[QUOTE=tengineer;57117]USMMA gives an excellent education to many folks who could not have afforded a similar education elsewhere. [/QUOTE]

So now I have to provide charity educations to kids who’ll likely go on to six figure positions after graduation? I DON"T THINK SO!

Btw, thanks for agreeing with me most of the time teng…nice that somebody here does…

.

[QUOTE=KPEngineer;57116]The US Merchant Marine Cadet Corps was founded in 1938 and Cadets were being lost to enemy fire in 1942.[/QUOTE]

You do not have to tell me about the US Merchant Marine history in WWII and wonder if you know that the first USMMA was at Fort Trumbull, CT? The funds to build KP didn’t even come until 1942.

Btw KPEng. you’re still evading the subject…

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[QUOTE=c.captain;57123]Btw KPEng. you’re still evading the subject…[/QUOTE]
And doing a darn good job of it if I do say so. Truth be told I have conflicting feelings on the subject which is why I have restricted myself to only posting on additional things that I feel give a more complete picture of all the issues that surround KP. That and a couple of what I consider to be gaps in logic. Beyond that, to paraphrase the immortal statement of Jerry Seinfeld … I choose not to post.

Speaking of evading the subject, Fort Trumbull was the Alma mater of the Jack Lord. Now there was a seafaring Merchant Marine officer for you…right down to the hair! Even KP doesn’t get to claim Steve McGarrett as an alum.

Now, back to our WWF slugfest already in progress

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C. Captain, this entire thread, and your disgruntled comments on the last one are ridiculous. We have “green energy” companies getting half a billion dollar government loans that will probably never get paid back, and the president pushing a half a TRILLION dollar jobs bill to be “paid” for with money fresh of the press and you’re claiming USMMA is bleeding the country dry? You claim your arguments based on burden to the tax payer, but compared to the two examples I provided, funding for KP for 10 years wouldn’t even be visible on a pie chart. Just fess up to your seething hatred for kings point devoid of any relevant economic reasoning and put it to rest.

KP is not bleeding the country dry…KP is WASTE!

Good day to you

A simple quiz boys and girls:

if A=$100,000,000 per year to keep the program going at KP

and B=5000 estimated maritime academy students at ALL maritime schools at any given time

then A/B = [U][I]$20000 per year potentially available to each and every maritime student in the US

[/I][/U]so for the same amount in spent in four years at KP to create 1000 merchant marine officers, AT LEAST 20000 can be graduated from ALL the schools.

today’s question class is where the [I][U]ECONOMY [/U]is to be found here[/I]? For extra credit class, which of the two choices below more closely matches the percentage of KP grads who make their careers as seagoing merchant vessel officers? a. <10% b. >10% (hint, the correct answer is not b.)

pencils down kids…class dismissed!

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Where is the economy to be found? If it has any it should be determined by the market. If there is a need for a maritime academy let’s open the property and facilities for bids from the private educational sector.

KP doesn’t provide this nation with a single person or product that is not available at lower cost from any number of private or State institutions. The only claim KP has on it existence is tradition and an alumni who seem to have little else to define their own lives. Why should an ever increasing number of impoverished taxpayers be tapped to fund this theater? KP is not the Vatican, its existence benefits a very very few, and those who fund it do not do so voluntarily.

The incestuous relationship between MARAD, the alumni, and the DoD has been proven to provide a breeding ground for ( I will be kind) questionable financial practices and shadowy personnel management. The smell rising from a loss of purpose and transparency has become too much to ignore. Like many other DoD facilities, it’s useful life and purpose has passed. It is time to transfer the physical assets to private enterprise and relegate the historical artifacts to museums. It is far better to have the institution go out with at least the facade of honor and some vestige of dignity than crumble under a series of Congressional investigations.

And after we eliminate the vacuum known as KP, let’s look at the CG academy.

[QUOTE=Steamer;57142]Where is the economy to be found? KP doesn’t provide this nation with a single person or product that is not available at lower cost from any number of private or State institutions. [/QUOTE]

Steamer has the correct answer everybody…he gets an A. Good job Steamer!

Does anybody else have a different answer they’d like to share with the class?

Anybody? Hello…

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[QUOTE=c.captain;57143]Steamer has the correct answer everybody…he gets an A. Good job Steamer!

Does anybody else have a different answer they’d like to share with the class?

Anybody? Hello…

.[/QUOTE]

I’d like to by a vowel.

[QUOTE=Steamer;57142]Where is the economy to be found? If it has any it should be determined by the market. If there is a need for a maritime academy let’s open the property and facilities for bids from the private educational sector.

KP doesn’t provide this nation with a single person or product that is not available at lower cost from any number of private or State institutions. The only claim KP has on it existence is tradition and an alumni who seem to have little else to define their own lives. Why should an ever increasing number of impoverished taxpayers be tapped to fund this theater? KP is not the Vatican, its existence benefits a very very few, and those who fund it do not do so voluntarily.

The incestuous relationship between MARAD, the alumni, and the DoD has been proven to provide a breeding ground for ( I will be kind) questionable financial practices and shadowy personnel management. The smell rising from a loss of purpose and transparency has become too much to ignore. Like many other DoD facilities, it’s useful life and purpose has passed. It is time to transfer the physical assets to private enterprise and relegate the historical artifacts to museums. It is far better to have the institution go out with at least the facade of honor and some vestige of dignity than crumble under a series of Congressional investigations.

And after we eliminate the vacuum known as KP, let’s look at the CG academy.[/QUOTE]

Let’s also look at the US Military, Naval and Air Force Academies. Had the original premise been looking at all the US academies instead of singling out Kings Point my position would have been different. I am still for eliminating congressional appointments and instituting a competitive exam so that the taxpayer truly gets the best and brightest, not the most “connected”.

[QUOTE=tengineer;57159]Let’s also look at the US Military, Naval and Air Force Academies.[/QUOTE]

Yes, let’s…but first KP because it does not have a specific branch of the armed forces in represents. It is the true turd in the punch bowl.

btw…you forgot New London. It also a little turd that needs to be flushed away after KP

Seems to me there is a considerable amount of misinformation floating around on this thread. First, the reason there is a federal academy for maritime training is for multiple reasons. Yes there is a need for a consistent supply of mariners just as there is a need for army officers coast guard officers etc. Kings point is one thing the government does right. The cost to graduate an officer with a license, a commission in the navy and the Bachelor of Science is approximately 1/3 the cost of the larger federal academies. Approximately 25% of the graduates elect to go active duty upon graduation the remaining 75% work afloat or something directly maritime related that must be approved by MARAD to be obligation fulfilling. For those that work afloat, the cost of their education is repaid to the taxpayers in approximately 5 years but at any rate less than the 10 year reserve obligation that Kings Pointers must fulfill. As for those who believe it’s who you know rather than what you know with regard to the congressional nomination, I sit on 2 congressional selection committees that select nominees not only for Kings Point but for the other federal academies as well with the exception of Coast Guard although we do discuss this as an option with candidates. The process is completely Apolitical. Our typical candidate has A’s possibly some B’s has taken AP calculus physics and chemistry , has performed 100+ hours of volunteer community service a year is in the top 25% of their graduating class, be commissiinable physically and held some type of leadership position in high school and participated in varsity athletics. Having close contacts with staff at the state schools, they would like to have this caliber of candidate but if you do your checking you will find they are somewhat rare. There is a considerable obligation that goes with the Kings Point education that does not exist at the other state schools. Candidates go to Kings Point because they graduate a professional mariner ready to go to work the day after graduation while our other federal academies have diluted their programs graduating English majors or political science majors who then require additional post graduate training before they are mission ready. Regarding GAO report, you will find that the report states no money was misappropriated or used for anything other than the academy the regiment and it’s programs. GAO reports never find “nothing” ever. But this is as close to nothing as is possible. If you are going to criticize then have the facts correct. Could MARAD use an overhaul ? Absolutely! 900 employees of which maybe 150 actually work doing something, yes it’s time for a house cleaning and overhaul. Should Kings Point remain? Absolutely.