What should happen to KP in the 21st century?

Maritime Academy USMMA
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“KP is only pre-eminent in the eyes of KP, its students and its alum. To the rest of the US maritime industry it is very far from that (do you want to really know what the rest of the industry thinks about KP’ers?) and on a global scale it doesn’t even rank or Kings Pointers would be hot property all over the world, but they AREN’T!”

I find that it is interesting that YOU consider yourself a spokesman for the "rest of the US maritime industry. When the rest of the maritime industry is your wheelhouse, I guess you would be correct. In reality, you could not be further off the mark. I DO know what the rest of the international maritime industry thinks of KP and the graduates. It is no surprise that it is quite the opposite of what you might think. I guess THAT is what makes you so bitter. What you may not realize is that, even on a global scale, IT DOES make a difference. But, of course, you have no clue. But please, do tell what the rest of the industry thinks from your perspective. This should be quite interesting.

Please do keep up the posts. I haven’t been entertained this much since you started whining about someone losing unlimited access to the internet while offshore.

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[QUOTE=cmakin;57215]Please do keep up the posts.[/QUOTE]

I’ll be happy to but as I do I am still waiting for you to answer the questions SIR. If you need to read them again…they are all in post #51 above. They are all there and quite easy to understand or do you just want to keep evading them?

Damn, how I love to make men like you just sputter and blow. That must be something that is taught at KP. It must be because it seems to be rather endemic of all the KP’ers who have been posting here in the vain attempts to prop up that failed institution. Refusing to enter into a meaningful debate over the subject does nothing to support your position. Just answer the questions…that all any of you need to do. Just rebutt me if you have the steel to do it!

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[QUOTE=KPEngineer;57213]I’m done with this thread and regret wasting my time here.[/QUOTE]

Oh, oh, I see, running away, 'eh? … You yellow bastards! Come back here and take what’s coming to you… I’ll bite your legs off!

The Black Knight always triumphs! Have at you! Come on then and after you go, I’ll still waiting here for you to answer the questions…

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[QUOTE=c.captain;57217]I’ll be happy to but as I do I am still waiting for you to answer the questions SIR. If you need to read them again…they are all in post #51 above. They are all there and quite easy to understand or do you just want to keep evading them?

Damn, how I love to make men like you just sputter and blow. That must be something that is taught at KP. It must be because it seems to be rather endemic of all the KP’ers who have been posting here in the vain attempts to prop up that failed institution. Refusing to enter into a meaningful debate over the subject does nothing to support your position. Just answer the questions…that all any of you need to do. Just rebutt me if you have the steel to do it!

.[/QUOTE]

There is nothing to be answered because there is nothing that would assuage your mindless contempt for anyone that comes out of KP. Of course, that wouldn’t be “germain” to the topic would it. No, you prove your pettiness and bitterness with each post. Sputtering and blowing? Why, they would describe your inane posts quite accurately, I would think. But you will claim victory once again. Keep it, it seems to be all you have.

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[QUOTE=KPEngineer;57213]Pleeeaaaaaase … [/QUOTE]

You should text my daughter in 7th grade…OMG!

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[QUOTE=cmakin;57225]There is nothing to be answered because there is nothing that would assuage your mindless contempt for anyone that comes out of KP.[/QUOTE]

But this is a public debate you have entered into and for your position to prevail, you must rebutt me or concede the contest to my assertions. Unless you are willing to stand for what you believe in and answer my challenge you are capitulating. If you do not believe that you are debating me, then what do you describe this thread as being? A friendly chat? It is not about converting me to your position but convincing others that your position is right. Are you up to the task? Give me a good argument and I will be thrilled…so far you;ve offered no such thing.

Perhaps you are one who wants this forum to be all happiness and flowers which would be pretty damn boring if it was. My 5 year old daughter loves to play with her My Little Ponies, maybe you’d like to join her?

Besides I like to think all the contempt I have for the modern maritime industry is quite mindful and thoroughly researched including footnotes and an index. I plan to release all my posts on gCaptain in book form one day soon (which naturally will be required reading for all cadets at KP). Of course, would you rather I switch to mindless violence instead? Wouldn’t take much…I could go off like a smokers convention held inside of a naptha refinery.

BOOM!

Happy All Hallows’ Eve y’all

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67

This may not be the best “win” for MSC. Let’s face it - a certain percentage of new third mates and engineers find out that they really don’t want to go to sea after all and become deadweight for the agancy and pose a risk to those who want to be there. I don’t want to sail with anyone who doesn’t want to be there and whose head isn’t completely focused on the job. We all have sailed with people like that, and it isn’t fun. MSC is not the Army or the Navy, where you can send a short-timer to an office job where little harm can be done. Besides, MSC gets plenty of entry-level mates from all the maritime academies. It’s convincing them to stay that is the issue.
KP seems to be a pretty good school, but I think the best solution is for the students to pay their full tuition, or accept any other tuition assistance that is offered at any other college or university such as ROTC scholarships and student loans. The need for a Federal tax-payer funded school for third mates and engineers is long over.

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[QUOTE=c.captain;57064]

Mind you, the idea of ending the USMMA program is not so dire as you and other KP’ers want us to believe. It is rather akin to a military base closing. The US maritime industry can get along just fine without KP.
[/QUOTE]

Pretty sure that was the idea before the chief on the Morro Castle abandoned ship and took the life boat ashore in his best set of whites, while the PAX burt to a crisp… hmmm?

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Pretty sure that was the idea before the chief on the Morro Castle abandoned ship and took the life boat ashore in his best set of whites, while the PAX burt to a crisp… hmmm?

What in the love of God does this statement have to do with the legitimacy of continuing to fund a United States Merchant Marine Academy?

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I’m going to guess that the implication is if the Chief was a Kings Pointer that would not have happened. In my mind, a VERY dangerous assumption to make. I do hope that what “beyond” meant was something different, though.

But, as long as I’m here, I’ll go ahead and weigh in on the KP issue. Full disclosure: I am in fact a Kings Pointer.

First off, I’m not necessarily against Kings Point being turned over to some other federal use or even closed altogether and sold off. While I am grateful for the education I received, and I would be sad to see it go, it’s very possible KP’s time has passed. That being said, though, if we’re going to close that down to save the government some money, they damn well better be trimming a s***load of money in other places.

Back to KPengineer’s comment some time ago…when I was a cadet I got many of the usual questions about what I planned to do after graduation. I was savvy enough to tell the non KPers that I planned on going to sea (which I in fact did, and still do, but at the time I was undecided). I had one mate in particular who would tell me every day in no uncertain terms that I’d better go to sea because he wasn’t paying for me to NOT go to sea. Trouble was, he was rather nasty about it. I finally got tired of his attitude and “thanked” him for contributing 1/2 of one cent my education (it was a very rough calculation made on the fly). Needless to say, he was not amused. Can’t imagine why he didn’t like me (though this may also have had a bit to do with the fact that I was smarter than him). But the point still applies: if they closed Kings Point, exactly what difference would it make to anyone’s personal bottom line? For that matter, what difference would it make to the country’s bottom line?

Someone on this thread made the point that I’ll repeat here: instead of worrying about whether KP should stay open, MARAD should be focusing on creating a coherent maritime strategy for this country AND STOP HANDING OUT THOSE F’ING JONES ACT WAIVERS! I can’t believe the Obama administration would even countenance such actions–aren’t Democrats supposed to be for the average worker? We’re in a time when many Americans are out of work, and here’s a perfect and (relatively) easy way to get at least SOME Americans back to work–and they’re completely blowing this harder than your typical Bremolo.

I’ve noticed a few things over the years: the folks who TRULY hate KP generally have some agenda. Among the ones I’ve met, it’s either because they’ve run into a few terrible KPers (yes, they’re out there), or they got rejected from KP. I’ve never judged any officer based simply on what school they went to. Some of the worst officer’s I’ve seen have been KPers, but probably the absolute worst I’ve met was from Cal. By the same token, some of the best officers have been from KP, but I’ve also worked with some great officers from other schools, or even through the hawsepipe. The point is, it’s the individual that should be judged and not where he’s “from”–and the same applies to whether KP should be closed or not–I’ve met too many people who said KP should be closed because Kings Pointers are “arrogant” and “idiots”.

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The point is, it’s the individual that should be judged and not where he’s “from”–and the same applies to whether KP should be closed or not–I’ve met too many people who said KP should be closed because Kings Pointers are “arrogant” and “idiots”.

Just so it is perfectly clear…my position to close Kings Point is that it is redundant and the purpose for which it’s funding is legitimized by its entrenched supporters is no longer valid and truly hasn’t been since the end of WWII. I object to any spending of money by a Federal Government (that has to borrow money from the Chinese to operate) on programs that to not have real demonstratable benefit to the nation. I believe that wasteful projects and programs make up at least one third of all Federal spending and should be eliminated whereever they are found and identified. KP is just one that is extremely easy to spot being painted pink with purple pokeodots all over it.

What do we as taxpaying citizens get for $86M a year? Is it a genuine real benefit to the US to justify that much money? I say NO, IT IS NOT!

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c.captain,
i can appreciate that you feel KP is redundant. However, you seem to fail to realize that the one thing that KP has going for it over the state schools is that it would take an act of Congress or an Executive Order to close the school. All it would take for a state school to be closed is (in most cases) a line item closure order from a state congress. I don’t know about you, but im convinced it is going to take a long time before we get a President and a Congress that can agree on whether they should wipe after they poo (wasting paper perhaps) much less closing a federal service academy.
To refute much of what you have said about KP, surprise, it isnt a free ride. I am surprised myself that nobody has brought this up. KP is the only federal academy that isnt a “free ride” and is the only academy that doesnt pay a stipend. Most ROTC students (including many at the state maritime academies) are paid a stipend above and beyond their actual free ride. As a graduate (and i know that i am condemning myself in your eyes), i left kings point with student loans that i just recently paid off, and i didnt have anything more than the $732 a month i was paid while i was at sea working and learning how actual shipping companies work. while i was shoreside at school, i relied on extra jobs and the benificence of my parents to keep me going.
I have to disagree with most of what you have said about KP. i have sailed with many crappy officers. Some of them were KP grads and some of them were graduates of the state schools. The best master i sailed with was a hawsepiper who had “hold fast” tatted on his knuckles. I dont think the source is the problem, the person is the issue. clearly, you havent learned that lesson, and you seem like the kind of tyrant who would suffer your leadership on others no matter where you were educated.
My final opinion is that KP DOES benefit the US. Perhaps the one or two examples I can think of off hand wont convince you. Honestly I don’t care. KP has produced two Commanders of manned space missions, a President of the AFL/CIO, and more Board Members of Fortune 500 companies than any other college of comparable size. Not to mention one of the biggest proponents of the martime industry in the active duty Navy in recent years, Admiral Buzby. Without a KP grad that dedicated to US shipping interests, youd likely be out of a job. Go ahead and search his name, youll find some pretty interesting articles and transcripts from his testimonies before Congress.
I know i didnt change your mind, you seem pretty dead set in your hatred/position as far as KP goes. enjoy that.

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Can we please stop feeding the wildlife.

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[QUOTE=KPEngineer;59413]Can we please stop feeding the wildlife.[/QUOTE]

I guess that is your attempt at taking a jab at me?

so weak…oh so very weak

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[QUOTE=kinnickmutt;59399]My final opinion is that KP DOES benefit the US. Perhaps the one or two examples I can think of off hand wont convince you. Honestly I don’t care. KP has produced two Commanders of manned space missions, a President of the AFL/CIO, and more Board Members of Fortune 500 companies than any other college of comparable size.[/QUOTE]

This pathetic list of “most distinguished alumni” justifies in your mind the perpetual funding of KP for almost 70 years!?! Christ, at least the other service academies can say that they have produced several POTUS along the way.

Btw sir, I do not have “hatred” for KP…I have hatred for WASTE and to me it just so happens that the USMMA is wasteful of money that you and I have to borrow from foreign investors to keep that “jem” of a service academy open and funded.

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[QUOTE=kinnickmutt;59399]Without a KP grad that dedicated to US shipping interests, youd likely be out of a job.[/QUOTE]

I am terribly sorry to disappoint you but I have my job because of 33CFR part 141 which is employment protected for US mariners under the Outer Continental Shelf Lands Act. I suggest you read that one sir because they didn’t teach you a thing about any of this at KP…did they?

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“KP has produced two Commanders of manned space missions, a President of the AFL/CIO, and more Board Members …”

I think those manned space missions would have flown even if KP didn’t exist. And since neither one of them served on a ship after graduation it only reinforces the point that we don’t need KP to produce baby mariners and we really don’t need KP to produce astronauts or any other kind of aircraft pilot.

The AFL/CIO would still have had a president, and Fortune 500 boards would still be populated with those who have connections in government offices to peddle.

KP also produced a guy who lost his license when he got caught smuggling 7 tons of weed into the country, how come you left him out?

If you can justify the expense to the taxpayer please do so. If all you can do is claim that those of us who want to stop the waste at KP and the related inbreeding at MARAD only speak out because we “hate” KP, then please don’t embarrass the place anymore than it has already done all by itself.

Is there a single person who can justify the continued funding of the USMMA on any basis other than tradition and inertia? so far it appears not.

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In this economy we have no room for tradition and inertia!!! Close KP and sale or lease the property it’s prime real state!!

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It is interesting that the MARAD press release about the “strategic plan” for KP has been given a spin that leads the casual reader to believe that someone at MARAD actually wants to make the place relevant.

“The United States Merchant Marine Academy (USMMA) today began work on a comprehensive strategic plan that will develop long-term objectives and institutional goals.”

The following statement seems to put it in a better perspective:

“The USMMA will undergo its next accreditation evaluation in 2016 and a core requirement of American higher education accreditation is that an academic institution has a current strategic plan.”

Since having a “plan” is required to maintain accreditation, why is this even “news”? It seems as routine as having a phone number or a library. Does this mean that someone just discovered that KP didn’t have a plan and its accreditation was at risk? Is MARAD so strapped for justification of KP funding that any non-negative news is good news?

Why does the MARAD administrator feel the need to publish a press release that is the equivalent of saying that KP is going to follow ordinary accreditation rules? This has the clumsy handprints of the alumni group all over it.

Write your Congress critter.

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The worth or value of anything is almost entirely subjective which makes virtually everything in this thread opinion. Everyone has their own, which they are perfectly entitled to, and I don’t see this thread changing anyones on either side.

Some will say KP is worth $0 per year and some think $86M isn’t enough. The only ones who really matter are the congressmen who appropriate the money. As long as they think its worth the money, then technically speaking it is. I doubt Congress looks at it from a strictly maritime and seagoing perspective so for us to debate it from that mindset is probably a little off topic.

My personal belief is that MARAD is the one out to lunch and on a whole host of issues. The dysfunctions of KP are just a symptom of that.

[QUOTE=Steamer;60827]Why does the MARAD administrator feel the need to publish a press release that is the equivalent of saying that KP is going to follow ordinary accreditation rules? This has the clumsy handprints of the alumni group all over it.[/QUOTE]The higher you go in government the more inept you become at the mundane. I always found it amazing at how the bigwigs will pat themselves on the back and issue press releases over their ability to tie their own shoes. I think it is more MARAD protecting their rice bowl than the alumni. The alumni association has been trying to get a strategic plan written for the school for a while. DOT finally rejected their proposals and lo and behold suddenly MARAD is trumpeting their own plan to have a plan. Typical bureaucratic BS.