I work for MSC as supply dept,but I am an ab,100ton,stcw… my goal in the next 10 years is to get my 3rd mates license. On my time off I am going to take as many classes as I can. Some day if I got my 3rd mates would I be at a big disavantage because I hawspiped it and did not go to a maritime school?? Does anyone have some first time hireing experience or know how employers thing about stuff like that?
Who cares. Can you do your job without pissing off the mate and/or skipper?
Guess I should add, do your skills, job assignments, etc, qualify you for the job. Then, if it’s union, who cares.
[QUOTE=HawspiperJeff;36149]What do employers thing of hawspipers?[/QUOTE]
They think highly of the ones that can spell.
At this moment, I have never sailed under a captain or a Mate thats Been to a Maritime Academy. I think its a pointless waste of time and just another way to milk money out of the system. There more about prestige and Elitism And Ive met a few Engineers that went to an Academy and the I think it probably helped them quite a bit though. In All honesty I would rather work with someone that started from the ground up, Earned there position and truly know what there doing then someone that sat in a room while some person Told them the theory behind what they should be doing.
Who would you trust more, Someone thats been there survived it, knows it and experienced it?
Or someone that read about it in a book?
As an employer I would take experience over school any day.
I would rather have a hawspiper no question but I am just curiose if big companys feel the same way?
There are pros and cons on both sides. I’ve sailed with good people from academies and I’ve sailed with good people who were hawsepipers. You can’t make a blanket statement about any particular route to a license or school for that matter. It all comes down to whether or not you have the knowledge and ability to do the job. That having been said, the graduates from the maritime academies tend to have pretty tight knit groups of alumni - word of mouth counts for a lot when you are looking for a job or a reference - having had gone to the same school as someone, even if it is decades apart, immediately gives you common ground. Some take it to extremes - such as the port captain at MSC who wouldn’t promote anyone unless they were from a certain school, but like I said there are good (and bad) people from all the routes to a license.
Seems like many companies can hire all the hawepipers they want from within. Trying to get a job as an outsider and a hawepiper can be a bit of a steep climb. Once you get work there may still be a bias against non-academy grads but can be overcome if you are competent, sober and hardworking. One thing that has helped me is good math and computer skills.
Years ago, I was turned down by Belcher, Exxon and Texaco because I was not an academy grad. In retrospect, they did me a great service.
I can only speek from the engineering side, but I have never been turned down a job because I was a Hawsepiper. It seems to me that a lot of my past employers understood that for the most part it takes more drive to climb your way up the hawsepipe, and drive is what most employers are looking for.
[QUOTE=cmjeff;36205]They think highly of the ones that can spell.[/QUOTE]
I reseint that coment.
I have fund that iff ur axing a cerios question, and want to be Tooken serousle, than U must right wit corecc sintax n Sentnese struktur. OHH, korect capitolizashum and punkuation is real importantt two.
But seriously, The dilemma of whether one or the other is taken seriously is primarily the FIRST impression an applicant gives to HR.
When an incompletely filled out, miss spelled, and incorrectly worded file hits the HR desk, they automatically assume they guy/girl is NOT well educated. There goes the argument that you are as ‘good’ as a college grad. When one shows up to an interview unshaven, with a mullet in a ponytail, is this who the company really wants representing their company? Not that I’m stereotyping, but HR is.
BTW, I resent that commend to.
Greetings everyone, jut joined and this is my first post.
before returning to offshore work in 2006 i worked as a millwright for years. worked at/in steel mills, car plants, paper mills, power plants etc…
i worked with a G.E. engineer/Alabama Power that did not have a 8th grade education and G.E. always put their new Mechanical Engineer Grads with him for training. THERE IS NO WAY A COLLEGE DEGREE CAN REPLACE ALL THOSE YEARS OF WISDOM.
i think there is a place for both but what school is going to teach you how to change a power pack on a 16 cylinder EMD in 30’ seas???
what about losing your generator power or mains with 1800’ of steel hawser out and a barge the size of a city block bearing down on you in 30’ seas?
or losing your tow completely and having to chase it down?
who to bribe and not bribe when you arrive at a foreign port? and which bars to stay out of?
personally, i view the offshore world the same as having specialized crafts or trades (Capt./ Mates/ Deckhands/ Engineers) each has its own place and nothing can replace O.J.T… AND YEARS OF EXPERIENCE.
-just as an example- there is alot to be said for a AB Unlimited that has been on the water for 30 years. even though he/she is just a deckhand they are likely to have more knowledge than a cadet fresh out of the academy.
think about it? years of work on the same vessel or type of vessel. traveling the same route for years. no academy can teach that.
i am partial to the Hawspipe…
i am not an Employer but i have worked with a few gentleman out of an Academy. Stand up Guys but still have a lot to learn. generally you must prove that you are capable of doing the job regardless of credentials and a big resume…
employers can figure out quickly who can do the job and who can’t.
Employers look at prospective employees in different ways depending on the level you are being hired for. A hawsepiper is normally considered one who didn’t attend a maritime academy but rather studied on their own and passed the test in order to get a license either deck or engineering.
Let’s suppose you are an employer and are faced with two applicanst holding the same license, example 3rd mate or 3rd asst. engineer. The hawsepiper has tons of experience but cannot write a coherent sentence. The maritime grad on the other hand can write a coherent sentence but has no experience.
Both of these guys are going to be starting out at the bottom and hopefully one day they’ll be in a position of authority where report writing and communications’ skills become increasingly important. The maritime grad will pick up the job experience along the way but it’s doubtful the same hawsepiper pick up the communication skills. Therefore as an employer you’d choose the maritime grad.
On the other hand a hawsepiper with management experience, equivalent job experience for the position being sought, outside schooling and good communication skills will get the job over the less experienced maritime grad almost every time.
Employers know getting a license isn’t that difficult, some people just have to go to school for 4 years to do so.
I agree with the two previous posts. I do think that hawepipers face a bias. An academy grad is seen as a safer bet all other things being equal. Another problem faced by the hawepiper is the lack of an alumni network.
Some of the best mates I’ve worked with deep sea were from the academy but had some previous experience in the towing industry. On the other hand, the some of the worse mates I’ve seen were hawsepipers who spent 20 years sailing on deep sea vessels and got their license relatively late in their careers. I think they discovered that weaving though a fleet of fishing vessels at 20 kts while drinking coffee is harder then an experienced mate makes it look.
Employers love academy grads cause it looks good on their insurance, also most likely their recruiting agents are also grads, so most likely they’re gonna recruit grads. If the employers are hawsepipers they’re most likely gonna promote hawsepipers. Its sad cause its so hard for hawsepipers to get a license anymore and with academy grads writing legislation, it appears it won’t get any easier…
[QUOTE=HawspiperJeff;36149]I work for MSC as supply dept,but I am an ab,100ton,stcw… my goal in the next 10 years is to get my 3rd mates license. On my time off I am going to take as many classes as I can. Some day if I got my 3rd mates would I be at a big disavantage because I hawspiped it and did not go to a maritime school?? Does anyone have some first time hireing experience or know how employers thing about stuff like that?[/QUOTE]
First thing you should do is get away from MSC first chance you get. Just kidding. I don’t know much about them really. I think you should look at it a different way. What are the alternatives to doing nothing? Career AB/Bosun…nothing wrong with that if you are happy with that. I can tell you this. If you have the license and experience, hawsepipe or academy, you will get a job. I am new to working with academy grads. It has almost been two years now. I can tell you these are some very bright and talented individuals. I wish I had my stuff together like these guys when I was their age. The fact is I did not know anything about maritime academies when I was that age. All I knew was my daddy worked on a boat and made good money and that if I worked hard that one day I would have my 100 ton, a house, a family and a dog. One thing led to another and things just kept on rolling. The natural progression for me was to keep on going. I don’t waste a lot of time considering if one is better than the other or what prospective employers think about my background. I know what I bring to the table and I positively contribute to my vessel and crew. I show people what I know and I learn from others the things I don’t know. For all those guys trying to climb up through the hawsepipe, be grateful that it is still available and try to take advantage of it while you can. I think you can do a little better than the next ten years. I know it is a lot of schools. The best way to get started is to take the first class. Then the next and the next. Before you know it you will be turning your application in for approval to test.
[QUOTE=Capt. Lee;36935]First thing you should do is get away from MSC first chance you get. Just kidding. I don’t know much about them really. I think you should look at it a different way. What are the alternatives to doing nothing? Career AB/Bosun…nothing wrong with that if you are happy with that. I can tell you this. If you have the license and experience, hawsepipe or academy, you will get a job. I am new to working with academy grads. It has almost been two years now. I can tell you these are some very bright and talented individuals. I wish I had my stuff together like these guys when I was their age. The fact is I did not know anything about maritime academies when I was that age. All I knew was my daddy worked on a boat and made good money and that if I worked hard that one day I would have my 100 ton, a house, a family and a dog. One thing led to another and things just kept on rolling. The natural progression for me was to keep on going. I don’t waste a lot of time considering if one is better than the other or what prospective employers think about my background. I know what I bring to the table and I positively contribute to my vessel and crew. I show people what I know and I learn from others the things I don’t know. For all those guys trying to climb up through the hawsepipe, be grateful that it is still available and try to take advantage of it while you can. I think you can do a little better than the next ten years. I know it is a lot of schools. The best way to get started is to take the first class. Then the next and the next. Before you know it you will be turning your application in for approval to test.[/QUOTE]
Good Post. That is a prime example of how a bias is usually misplaced as there are always exceptions. Once you get to the Chief Mate / Master level, it really doesn’t matter minus the boy’s club situations that arise. I’m not sure how many academy grads can say they took the Chief Mate / Master exam in one day like you did. Hard work is hard work, and you can’t learn that, no matter what your background is.