Yeah, I’m not seeing the issue here. If we flip this the other way and lets say hypothetically a seasoned Second Officer were to seek a commission in the Navy, they would not immediately be made Lieutenant Commander or even Lieutenant. Some amount of time should be afforded to learning the ropes in any business or endeavor.
People with the attitude that their training is superior to others and therefore should be placed higher than others is a huge red flag to me. There is a clear path to get your license. Most of us have followed it. If you chose to pursue a career in the Navy and now wish to switch over, enjoy the process just like we did. Embrace the suck!
I don’t see the author asking to come in as a chief mate, he’s saying someone with years of experience standing officer of the deck underway in an oceans/unlimited capacity shouldn’t have to come in as an OS or AB. Your hypothetical 2nd mate would qualify to come in the Navy as an ensign in the strategic sealift officer program, not a 3rd class petty officer. I think you’re reading into ‘attitude’ that just isn’t there.
When we start the “Mariner to Military” program, merchant mariners will be able to go straight into officer positions without additional training. Just show the USN your MMC and you’ll be commissioned on the spot. No that will never happen. Though tbh, it did work pretty similar to that through most of history.
Its a bit more nuanced than that. There are only 4 deck/cargo/bridge/medical/supply/etc officers onboard most merchant vessels. These officers (including the Captain) have a much wider range of duties than their Navy counterparts. Also the document you provided indicates that someone with a a maritime degree and a seconds can drop down to the lowest level officer in the navy. FYI -generally- anyone with a degree (maritime or otherwise) can join the armed forces as an officer.
I read the article. Sorry, the author comes off as having a chip on his shoulder about not being able to immediately stand a watch as a ships officer. Otherwise, what is the issue?
I have sailed with a person who had been a quartermaster in the Navy and allowed to test for an original Second Mates license. The logic, as it was explained to me, was that they were navigators so they should get the license for a navigation officer. The problem was, expectations for what a Second Mate is capable of in the commercial fleet were above and beyond navigation only. It was an eye opener for them as well as the Captain.
There are vast differences to different facets of this industry just like there are vast differences between the Navy and commercial seafaring. My point is that everyone can benefit from being humble, choosing to observe, and to learn versus jumping immediately into a leadership position. It may hurt the ego, but it will be worth it.
If he spent a lot of time on SEA DUTY, then he has sea time. I got out of the Navy as a QM2 with 3 years 9 months, most of my time assigned to a ship. I got 740 or so days after the 60% rule. Went to work for ACOE unlimited dredge ship as an A/B limited. 3 months after getting out. After getting 340 days, I sat for my 3/M lic. This guy can’t do it this way without whining? It is the system and I met SWO’s that were dumbasses when it came to navigation! I now hold Unlimited Master,any Oceans, any Tonnage. So he has 820 days sea time(60% rule) in either 5 years or 7 as he may still be in but spent 2 years fighting, as he portrays, the NMC. He should have passed on shore duty as I did!
Had one like that early in my career as well, but a Senior Chief (Boatswains Mate.) Aside from insisting we refer to him as Senior Chief (get over yourself… no one is impressed) he also felt that the paygrade/rank system still applied and that as 2M he could delegate whatever jobs he didn’t want to the 3M.
He went down the gangway a few inches shorter after that trip. I personally never saw or heard of him again.
I wish to thank you for your observations, comments and perspectives.
You may consider the process in completing the assessments as a pain in the ass. It is not as complicated as it sounds.
The Navy uses a similar signature system to qualify their stand watches or perform specific routine duties. They refer to as Personnel Qualification System PQS. When comparing the STCW Assessments to the PQS Assessments for bridge or engine room watch standing they are similar. Having both systems signed of at the same time would be my approach. Especially considering the signed task control sheet don’t necessarily have a time stamp expiration date.
Where training certificates have 1-, 5-, or 10-year expiration period. The training certificate in some respects controls the timeline for USCG application and national testing for the license or endorsement desired.
As to the attitude of those who have made the transition, there are those who can not release their Navy experience and embrace their new professional career as a merchant mariner.
However in the various gCaptain threads, I have see the names of ex-military members who have successfully made the transition used in high regard.
My observation is that the former Army tugboat guys are usually pretty good. The USCG guys that were on bouy tenders are usually pretty good, the rest not so much. I have been much less impressed with most of the former Navy guys.
Guys who were only in for 4 years can be trained. Lifers that were in for 20-30 years are resistant to training.
I had one of those as well. He claimed he ran YTBs (after he got back from riverboats in VN) but when the gray got painted over to red it must have effected his ability to run them without bangs, crashes, crunches, and dents.
Between sea jobs years ago I took a very good job with a major multinational manufacturer beginning operations in the US. They needed people with steam experience and were getting into co-generation. So they decided it would be a good idea to hire retired Navy BTs, mostly chiefs and a few firsts when they built their first manufacturing facility to run their power plants.Mistake. They built 4 more plants after that and never hired another. The chiefs knew near zero about anything other than boilers which was only 25% of the job in a power plant in a manufacturing facility. The company looked for machinist mates or sailing engineers from then on if they could find them but mostly ended up training their own . I will say this, the retired Chief BTs could make good coffee
Like you said earlier — the guys with 4 years or so were great. Disciplined enough to take direction, open to criticism and willing to do what it took to learn their new field… the retired/long service guys were loaded with ego and institutionalized.
You’re absolutely right. I had this problem too straight out of the Navy. Thought I knew everything and felt entitled. I was humbled pretty quickly as a cadet.
Going from the military service to the merchant marines should be a humbling experience.
My first humbling experience, of many, was when I noticed the diversity of the examination questions. I too thought I knew everything!!
However, I quickly learned that my Navy training and experience did not cover a fraction of the things represented in my preparation for my first merchant marine license or for any of the examinations that would come later in my career.
This month, I started my learning process over again by looking at and studying the newly released 2024 Sample Exam Modules.
By setting down and starting the process of going through each sample deck license exam module, I find a renewed respect for those who can set for a license and pass the series of exam modules without referring to the reference’s that the question came from.
Today, I accept the challenge in front of me and stay humble with the knowledge that some of my fellow mariners have encountered the harshness of the sea by their over confidence in themselves and their ships. e.g. Captain E.J Smith.
With all the years of experience that I have, going thru some staggering seatime and dealing with insane amounts of tests as a graduate from the Workboat Academy “I am baffled that I can’t obtain a SWO insignia”. Oh wait I’m too old.
So a SWO is the equivalent of a 200 GRT license and that’s it. Even when you switch companies in some occasion you’ll have to step down in order to move up.