no problem with unions, but I have a problem abusing unemployment
[QUOTE=z-drive;182580]lol and I bet the politically vote “anti welfare anti entitlement” Etc too yet they’re the biggest fraudsters going.[/QUOTE]
This has been covered in another thread. A union employee displaced by another can legally draw unemployment, even with vacation pay. Doesn’t make it right though.It was always a sticking point in contract negotiations as the company’s UI premium increases with every claim.
In nearly every STCW course I’ve taken lately, parallel lines are drawn with the aviation industry. While I thought it was a waste of time at first, it does become clear that mariners and aviators are in similar fields with regards to stress, odd scheduling and work hours, and inherently, sleep deprivation. Ever notice how the higher up you move, the more you are expected to work? Is that acceptable? The people with the power to speak up, as was noted correctly, decide they enjoy cheese…
I am not sure who in their collective sanity would accept a statement that 6-6 schedules are okay. Perhaps to the company’s bottom line, but surely not for health and welfare. Seeing how OSVs abuse this more than anyone, don’t assume unions would change the 6-6 abomination. While unions have changed the industry as a whole for the better, they will look out for their members before anyone else. The only way this will change is by steps implemented via the IMO/ILO, then hope the USCG adopts their stance to affect non-STCW compliant vessels.
[QUOTE=NewEngr;182759]While unions have changed the industry as a whole for the better, they will look out for their members before anyone else.[/QUOTE]
Looking out for the members would mean ending 12 hour work days which would both boost the member’s rest/health and increase available jobs. There problem is that with multiple competing unions they are on a race for the bottom so their primary concern is sucking the company’s cock to keep the contract.
I’m curious, when we talk about getting rid of the 12 hour work day, does that include working 6/6 during cargo operations at the dock? Frankly, 6/6 at the dock has to go too. Cargo watches are just as, if not more dangerous than sea watches. Once you start getting into 4/8 at the dock then you’re probably talking about having a lot more people on any given boat. I don’t know a lot of tugs that have bunk space for that. Food for thought.
replace dead-weight second “mates” with real watch standing mates. Shouldn’t have to really ad anyone on your typical ATB then? Maybe one more tankermen?
Doesn’t apply to the second mates who are capable of standing a watch already though, You know.
[QUOTE=z-drive;182786]replace dead-weight second “mates” with real watch standing mates. Shouldn’t have to really ad anyone on your typical ATB then? Maybe one more tankermen?
Doesn’t apply to the second mates who are capable of standing a watch already though, You know.[/QUOTE]
Let’s not forget about the Engineers. When I was sailing (working 6+6 for 21 days), I would never get more than 5 hours of rest at a time.
It always seemed that when ever I had a break down, it would be right after having been up for 24 + while in port undergoing repairs.
It really pisses me off when statements are made about needing more AB’s or Wheel House people but Engineers are left out. The days of Galley Chiefs are long gone.
We had Three Wheel house guys that worked 4 on 8 off at sea. The Second and Chief Mates did 6+6 in port for cargo.
When we started having to fill out spreadsheets with our hours, my Captain was always getting on me for being over my hours and he kept saying that I was going to be called out by the office for it.
One day, I am told that I am needed on the phone (1430). Sure enough it was the office calling me out for going over my hours. After about 34 minutes, I told them that just so you know, I will be over my hours for today. When they asked why, I told them that as I was off watch and that this counted as Vessel Business it counted. For my remaining time there (about 4 years), I never heard anything about my hours.
Until the USCG comes out with Minimum Manning and work hours these companies will keep right on doing what they want. Let’s face it after the El Faro, we all should know just how much our lives are valued by these companies!
I agree chief. Unfortunately you guys get less attention in the basement but the hours are there. If the captain does it right though it’s not as bad. No reason to have a guy up on 6/6 on A new tug these days when they can focus the hours when practical on preventative Maintenance (paperwork)etc…with competent deckhands making rounds of course. Bottom line is they all ought to require an assistant whether it be a real assistant or wiper/qmed getting sea time at the least.
The West coast tugs I was on had three wheelhouse guys and three others, an AB, an OS or AB cook, and an engineer. Those three worked 4 on 8 off so the engineer was only on watch for 8 hours per day and had time for breakdowns, working the tow winch, maneuvering, etc. (Anything off watch was overtime.)
I cant speak for you and your vessel but if you are working on a newer vessel with automated alarms theirs no reason to work 6/6. Ive worked on 2 diff. Atb’s for the last 4 years and both chiefs would close the door at 2300 amd wake around 0800 or 0900. Usually an ab and two tankermem would be on 4/8 underway so someone is up 24 hrs a day.
[QUOTE=acesouthcoast;182794]I cant speak for you and your vessel but if you are working on a newer vessel with automated alarms theirs no reason to work 6/6. Ive worked on 2 diff. Atb’s for the last 4 years and both chiefs would close the door at 2300 amd wake around 0800 or 0900. Usually an ab and two tankermem would be on 4/8 underway so someone is up 24 hrs a day.[/QUOTE]
When I was sailing I was on ATB/s and we ran with an Two Licensed Engineers. As CE, I was also responsible for the Tank Barge also. Usually, I would be up on the Barge when we were underway during my morning watch. The Tug did have alarms and I had the Cook stick his head down there every 30 minutes or so. Not the best way but it worked. This was for standard jobs not Emergency Repairs, as for that I was up there no matter whether I was on or off watch. My Company did not pay CE’s OT but we could work it as much as we wanted. LOL
As for Automation, I used to build E.R. Automation Systems for Tugs and Small Tankers. Even with the Automation, I have always felt that no Vessel should every sail with only one Engineer. There have been way too many times where had there been an Engineer on Watch small problems could have been caught before they became really big problems.
With what you described, what happens if there is a problem in the ER? If there was a problem did the Deck Crew turn to and head down to help the Chief?
When I first started out, I sailed on Coastal Tugs that ran with One Engineer. We still stood 6+6 but got OT for anything over that. The main problem when the shit hit the fan was trying to get help doing the repairs. Most boats worked together pretty well but there were a few that the only time the Deck Crew would come down during a repair was to say the Captain wants to know how much longer until I am done.
I have never understood how guys will complain about being “Short Handed” on Deck or the Wheel House and want a third hand for watch but see no problem going to sea with ONE Engineer.
My Heart goes out to those still sailing as I had really hoped that times would have changed by now with the attitude towards having enough Engineers onboard but some things never change.
[QUOTE=Tugs;182799]When I was sailing I was on ATB/s and we ran with an Two Licensed Engineers. As CE, I was also responsible for the Tank Barge also. Usually, I would be up on the Barge when we were underway during my morning watch. The Tug did have alarms and I had the Cook stick his head down there every 30 minutes or so. Not the best way but it worked. This was for standard jobs not Emergency Repairs, as for that I was up there no matter whether I was on or off watch. My Company did not pay CE’s OT but we could work it as much as we wanted. LOL
As for Automation, I used to build E.R. Automation Systems for Tugs and Small Tankers. Even with the Automation, I have always felt that no Vessel should every sail with only one Engineer. There have been way too many times where had there been an Engineer on Watch small problems could have been caught before they became really big problems.
With what you described, what happens if there is a problem in the ER? If there was a problem did the Deck Crew turn to and head down to help the Chief?
When I first started out, I sailed on Coastal Tugs that ran with One Engineer. We still stood 6+6 but got OT for anything over that. The main problem when the shit hit the fan was trying to get help doing the repairs. Most boats worked together pretty well but there were a few that the only time the Deck Crew would come down during a repair was to say the Captain wants to know how much longer until I am done.
I have never understood how guys will complain about being “Short Handed” on Deck or the Wheel House and want a third hand for watch but see no problem going to sea with ONE Engineer.
My Heart goes out to those still sailing as I had really hoped that times would have changed by now with the attitude towards having enough Engineers onboard but some things never change.[/QUOTE]
I was lucky. When I started on tugs it was over with Crowley. Their Invaders were one engineer tugs and we stood the 8-12 watch with the old man. Alarm response off watch was OT. . . I used to make a killing on OT. There were a couple of boats that we charted in (LAMCO IV comes to mind) where we would stand 12 hour watches when I was a trainee. . . when I went over to the evil SEA SKIMMER/PLAQUEMINE, we had two engineers, but after about a year, I made my point and got another engineer. . .like you, on the ATB, I also had work to do on the barge, but I generally did that in the afternoon for my free OT. . . . after my post lunch nap, of course. . .
I understand that the Invader tugs now have two engineers, but that kinda seems like a pain in the ass, truth be told. . . I did have long days over there at times, but for the most part, it seemed to be manageable. . . of course that was some 30 years ago. . .
I know what you mean. Some crews work great together and help the engineer and others dont. Typically the engineer is a either a good guy or a pain in the ass and that will set the tone on whether or not the AB’s go down and help. And then you might just have a lazy AB and you’re screwed either way. We have an AB or Tankermen do an engine room round every 30 mins when we are underway and the chief is off watch and we still have the automated alarm system.
Sometimes i envy the chief because he works alone and doesn’t really have any other personalities to deal with until the shipyard period.
[QUOTE=acesouthcoast;182833]
Sometimes i envy the chief because he works alone and doesn’t really have any other personalities to deal with until the shipyard period.[/QUOTE]
I’ll second that. Working on both sides at one time or another I will say being the sole engineer onboard has its perks till the shit hits the fan.
It goes both ways. On one boat I worked on I had a good rapport with the deck crew, and any time I needed a hand they would help. In turn, for example when a couple grand worth of groceries show up I would make myself available to help load. Unlike my relief who was always busy down below or doing paperwork…and like clockwork would make an appearance when it was all done and say “groceries are here? You should have called me.” Small crews should all have the attitude to help eachother out as long as it doesn’t get abused.
[QUOTE=Ctony;182842]I’ll second that. Working on both sides at one time or another I will say being the sole engineer onboard has its perks till the shit hits the fan.
It goes both ways. On one boat I worked on I had a good rapport with the deck crew, and any time I needed a hand they would help. In turn, for example when a couple grand worth of groceries show up I would make myself available to help load. Unlike my relief who was always busy down below or doing paperwork…and like clockwork would make an appearance when it was all done and say “groceries are here? You should have called me.” Small crews should all have the attitude to help eachother out as long as it doesn’t get abused.[/QUOTE]
I always helped with groceries. . even on the ATB where I had two assistants (and it was a difficult haul). I was lucky in that I rarely needed help from a deckhand down below. They would help, but few were very enthusiastic about it, even with OT. . .
I’ve been very fortunate in my career to work with some great engineers. All but one is/was a top notch guy. For some reason I’ve always gravitated towards the engineers and wound up hangin and spending a lot of time with them. On NY wire boats there was typically one engineer. 9 out of 10 times I was on the back watch as the AB and did rounds when the Chief was resting. And on the flip side, the Chiefs would come out and make and break tow all of the time. Hell, the engineers were better deckhands than most of the deckhands I worked alongside. Some of the Engineers even threw lines better than the DH.
When we have a tow to make or break I normally stay in the wheelhouse with the captain while our engineer plays deck boss. He’s better at it than I am. I just run in to help when they need it and then get out of the way.
Most of the engineers I’ve worked with would help on deck, cook, even steer for a few minutes if you asked. I’ve never worked with deckhands who wouldn’t help down below, usually without being asked. Some probably were more a hindrance than a help though. Even As a mate/captain I go down below to do whatever I can when broke down. Probably because I was taught that way from day one.
Same goes for most engineers being better on deck than some deckhands.
I cooked lunch yesterday and we all just got done loading groceries.
[QUOTE=Fraqrat;182887]I cooked lunch yesterday and we all just got done loading groceries.[/QUOTE]
Did Hornbeck get rid of cooks?