I’m looking for some advice from those who’ve traveled the screwed up and unpaved path for become a wheelman/pilot. I work for a company that does in house training but have been severly screwed over in the last 5 1/2 years. I got so fed up I went and got my apprenticeship liscense for up to 200 ton inland and western rivers but still have no luck getting anywhere here. I’m now on the verge of my liscense expiring. Can anyone give me some advice about what company will actually train people to advance their career? My goal is to learn and train on inland tow boats before having a linear transition to a tractor harbor tug possibly even ocean going tug with a sea barge. I have 5 1/2 years vast experience in my field but am considered a black sheep for standing up for what is right with the “people in charge.” Any help and advice is welcome here.Why is it so difficult to become a wheelman in this industry? It’s the whole reason I wanted to come out here, I love the job and I’m tired of paying my dues for nothing.
I think you have to stop thinking your entitled or relying on someone else pay for your training
I have a master 1600 ton oceans and never had a company pay one cent towards any of it.
Good luck with your search.
[QUOTE=Dingo;79844]I think you have to stop thinking your entitled or relying on someone else pay for your training
I have a master 1600 ton oceans and never had a company pay one cent towards any of it.
Good luck with your search.[/QUOTE]
I didn’t read that he is looking for a company to foot the bill. He already got his apprentice license on his own, and is looking for an opportunity to use it with a company before it expires.
Sorry cntrydog if I read your post wrong,
Are you short on sea time to renew your license?
As far as I know, there are no companies who do this anymore. Since the recession hit it is the ‘old fashioned way’. You get a Deckhand job, do your deck work and then in between tasks and off watch you do the training.
Several years ago there were numerous companies who had these “training” spots with some guys getting paid to ride as a trainee. No more.
Two issues come to mind.
-
You need to find a job at a company that has DEs to sign off your TOAR.
-
And if you walk aboard with a chip on your shoulder (which your post sounds like) You will probably not get far. Of course I don’t know you, but seems that way to me.
You asked an interesting question. Why is this so hard to get into. The actual license is the easy part. Having a level head, being able to get along (in a position of authority) and be judicious about when to use authoritee’ is another issue entirely. That would be the issue to be introspective about.
There is more to it than meets the eye!
If the company you work for isn’t promoting you (read: wasting their time not training you) figure out why. And change it! I really doubt you will be ‘promotable’ until you deal with the underlying issue.
I do have to say at this point in time I have to say I’m rather upset over my situation as a whole so yes I do have a “chip on my shoulder.” Now this isn’t my nature most of the time and I work very hard towards creating a team effort and to bring unity aboard my vessels. The issue that I am facing is that my company has several people in positions of authority that pull ridiculous stuff simply because they have the power. I don’t agree with actions of that caliber and believe in being humble. If you can’t get your people to work with or for you without you pulling rank or simply have your people dancing like monkeys because it amuses you then you have a major issue being a leader. My entire life I have learned and been taught by some great people that you will always get better and more effecient results leading by example and respect as opposed to authority and demand. I’ve always been that kind of guy who everyone turns to with issues and especially when “the shit hits the fan” I think fast on my feet and being quick decisive and having a lot of foresight makes me a great leader. I have done a many various things and trades before I chose to work on a boat. I bring a lot of outside knowledge into a seemingly close minded industry. Now addressing the issues with my company this comes about because I’m not an idividual who just says yes sir when given an order. I want to find out why I’m being given a certain order and the thoughts behind it because I yearn for knowledge. I find being this way tends to cause issues with some of the “older” individuals in the idustry because they tend to see it as being disrespectful and or insubordinate. My view point is if you can’t ask questions to further your knowledge how can you ever become a better individual no matter the subject matter. I want to be the best mariner that I can personally be and hold myself to a standard no one else can hold me to. I have upset port captains and captains alike in my time at my current company right up to the individual who runs our in house training program. The guy who runs the program thinks that his program is the best and for that matter only good liscense and when approached with why can’t I train with my liscense because it’s just as good, the difference is that I didn’t go through his program. My company as a whole has this outlook. Now to bring to light the whole reason I went out side of my company to begin with is due to the fact that I used to be a floater for a good while before being assigned to a permanent vessel. Long story short my first assigned captain and I had a fall out because of reasons I spoke of earlier and him not doing what was right when we had a problemmatic crew member. My second assigned captain was a total joke and cared about no one but himself and spent more time covering up his screw ups than anything else. This brings me to my current captin who I’ve worked with now for a year and a half and we had an understanding he would help train me under the company’s radar as he has had some of the same type issues I have with our company. We had come to this agreement because he has the same mentality about being a quality person and doing what’s right, yet his has gotten me no where and trains me next to none. Also I might need to add my captain has the mentality of just buying his time until he makes retirement. I feel lied to and betrayed so to speak by my company because I see a lot of other people who really have no business being at the wheel of a boat nor being in a management position. I am not the only guy who has run into this issue at my company nor will I probably be the last. I am trying to get into touch with some wheelman to get recomendations but have yet to hear back from them. It seems as if everyone knows the problems with the system but none want to step up and be a voice for what is right. This brings me to this forum as I’m looking for advice in hopes I may be able to go elsewhere to follow my passion.
[QUOTE=Dingo;79855]Sorry cntrydog if I read your post wrong,
Are you short on sea time to renew your license?[/QUOTE]
No I have more than enough sea time it’s the issue of having all the proper paperwork together for renewal before my liscense expires in 3 weeks which is when I get off the boat next is when my apprentice liscense has to be renewed so yeah.
[QUOTE=cappy208;79889]As far as I know, there are no companies who do this anymore. Since the recession hit it is the ‘old fashioned way’. You get a Deckhand job, do your deck work and then in between tasks and off watch you do the training.
Several years ago there were numerous companies who had these “training” spots with some guys getting paid to ride as a trainee. No more.
Two issues come to mind.
-
You need to find a job at a company that has DEs to sign off your TOAR.
-
And if you walk aboard with a chip on your shoulder (which your post sounds like) You will probably not get far. Of course I don’t know you, but seems that way to me.
You asked an interesting question. Why is this so hard to get into. The actual license is the easy part. Having a level head, being able to get along (in a position of authority) and be judicious about when to use authoritee’ is another issue entirely. That would be the issue to be introspective about.
There is more to it than meets the eye!
If the company you work for isn’t promoting you (read: wasting their time not training you) figure out why. And change it! I really doubt you will be ‘promotable’ until you deal with the underlying issue.[/QUOTE]
I like you, you know how to give a asschewing with style!!!
The issue that I have is with my company’s attitude as a whole with their training. Although the licenses is the same if you don’t go through their program then they act as if your licenses are no good. There are several people in authority here that abuse their power. You are correct about the chip on my shoulder. I wrote that first post whilst being very pissed off. It is very unnerving dealing with these individuals as I have learned and grown up with the belief that you should stand up for what’s right no matter your position, age, social status, or anything else for that matter. Acting in the matter of a true leader in such that I lead by example as opposed to authority and have almost never had to pull rank on someone. I’ve done a vast amount of things before I found a love for working on boats and thus bring that expert knowledge with me where ever I go. Although I don’t have a college degree I will hold an intelligent debate full of counter points with a college graduate any day of the week. I’m 27 and started in this industry when I was 22 and being as young as I am people on a whole severely underestimate my knowledge and abilities. I am a humble character for the most part but when someone is doing wrong I call them on it just as much as I expect some one to do the same to me. I have had a handful of these instances with people of “authority” at my company and have thus hit road blocks after road blocks in every form of fashion with a big target painted on myself. Now I do understand all to well the back hand dealt with your post and greatly respect it and admire it. I should have calmed down and fully explained my predicament with more poise to begin with rather than bicker and bitch like an adolescent. I will have to say though I do feel as though I’m owed my opportunity to prove myself as a wheelman. I’ve paid my dues dealt with some real serious shit bags and have no issue showing others how things can and should be done. I put my heart and soul into everything I do and as a result tend to “out work” my peers. I already have the knowledge necessary for the job I desire as I already do everything management and logistical wise. The only thing I don’t do is actually pilot the boat. I strive very hard to ensure a team environment with every crew I’m a part of. On a whole just with my crew I feel as if I’m too good at what I do that they don’t want me to promote as that would require me to leave. I certainly hope this might clear up the screwed up attitude I showed earlier and welcome rebuttal. Now I still want to ask why in the hell is it so difficult to promote in this industry? There is a very real segregation between the deck and wheelhouse on any type of vessel. I don’t understand nor do I fathom some of the metaphorical hoops that folks have to jump through to make that climb from one to the other.
Be the best deckhand you can be and get a bigger license. My company won’t hire you as an AB unless you have a 500 ton license. Even though you can legally steer most tugs with a 200 ton w/ towing a large number of companies require larger licenses.
Country dog: When you reach this point you have to make a decision. If you are at a roadblock, then either you move around the roadblock or you stay and wait for the roadblock to move.
After reading your PM I understand.
But one thing to let you know. Your license doesn’t expire, your seatime as Deckhand let’s you renew. Does your company have any Captains who are DEs?
I would not quit (yet), but would be looking for another job (then quit).
When your professional goals don’t match the plans your company has for you it’s time to go!! But you do need to find out why, so you know what to look for or what not to do in your next Job.
I have an issue with your post cntryman, I can tell just by reading your last post that your not ready to be a wheelman as you call it, because you mention that you have all the necessary qualifications to be a wheelman ( I’m assuming you mean captain) and if you talk to any great captain they will tell you that you never stop learning, which you seem like you allready know everythig after a quick 5 years, and also just because you have the necessary qualifications doesn’t mean that your ready to be a captain, there are a lot of guys that have been doing this for years and just aren’t captain material, I myself have been working at this for 17 years and am working my way to the wheel house and you just have to bethe best deckhand you can be, keep learning all you can and yor chance will come, but you do need. To get rid of that chip on your shoulder and take it down a notch
[QUOTE=cntrydog;79973]The issue that I have is with my company’s attitude as a whole with their training. Although the licenses is the same if you don’t go through their program then they act as if your licenses are no good. There are several people in authority here that abuse their power. You are correct about the chip on my shoulder. I wrote that first post whilst being very pissed off. It is very unnerving dealing with these individuals as I have learned and grown up with the belief that you should stand up for what’s right no matter your position, age, social status, or anything else for that matter. Acting in the matter of a[B] true leader[/B] in such that I lead by example as opposed to authority and have almost[B] never had to pull rank on someone[/B]. I’ve done a [B]vast amount of things [/B]before I found a love for working on boats and thus bring that[B] expert knowledge[/B] with me where ever I go. Although I don’t have a college degree I will hold an intelligent debate full of counter points with a college graduate any day of the week. I’m 27 and started in this industry when I was 22 and being as young as I am people on a whole [B]severely underestimate my knowledge and abilities[/B]. I am a[B] humble[/B] character for the most part but when someone is doing wrong I call them on it just as much as I expect some one to do the same to me. I have had a handful of these instances with people of “authority” at my company and have thus hit road blocks after road blocks in every form of fashion with a[B] big target painted on myself[/B]. Now I do understand all to well the back hand dealt with your post and greatly respect it and admire it. I should have calmed down and fully explained my predicament with more poise to begin with rather than[B] bicker and bitch like an adolescent[/B]. I will have to say though I do feel as though I’m [B]owed[/B] my opportunity to prove myself as a wheelman. I’ve paid my dues dealt with some real serious shit bags and have no issue showing others how things can and should be done. I put my heart and soul into everything I do and as a result tend to “out work” my peers. I already have the knowledge necessary for the job I desire as I already do everything management and logistical wise. The only thing I don’t do is actually pilot the boat. I strive very hard to ensure a team environment with every crew I’m a part of. On a whole just with my crew I feel as if I’m too good at what I do that they don’t want me to promote as that would require me to leave. I certainly hope this might clear up the [B]screwed up attitude[/B] I showed earlier and welcome rebuttal. Now I still want to ask why in the hell is it so difficult to promote in this industry? There is a very real segregation between the deck and wheelhouse on any type of vessel. I don’t understand nor do I fathom some of the metaphorical hoops that folks have to jump through to make that climb from one to the other.[/QUOTE]
You say you are a humble character for the most part … but everything you have written here contradicts that.
If I am doing the math right, you came to work on boats at age 22, but by that tender age you had “done a vast amount of things” and already had “expert knowledge”.
By the way you write here you come across as a dick, pardon my brusque analysis. If that’s how you conduct yourself aboard ship, maybe you need to rethink yourself. And rethink why you arent getting the opportunity to prove yourself as a wheelman that you think you are “owed”
Well said flyer I totally agree with ya!
[QUOTE=Flyer69;80585]you came to work on boats at age 22, but by that tender age you had “done a vast amount of things” and already had “expert knowledge”.
[/QUOTE]
I felt the same way when I was 22, boy was I wrong. I knew enough to get me in trouble. I had done a vast amount of things and had expert knowledge but had no clue how to use it. Now one of my favorite things is to watch the youngsters with this same attitude get themselves into situations they can barely get out of.
The next step is either death becuz of their own ineptitude or they realize they don’t know-it-all and start listening. Sounds cntrydog like he is at this point, hopefully he will get the opportunity.
Country dog is right. 5 years is about 3 more then most of the guys steering a boat today put in on deck. Even though its a dead end complaint on here it is a huge issue for so many right now. Getting yourself out of those tight situations is the only way to learn. It wont be long until the old dogs retire, then what? An industry filled with theory driven ring knocker filled boats? Accidents daily from hawsepipers learning with no one over there shoulder? Its now or never … Grimm future.
[QUOTE=cntrydog;79952]before my liscense expires in 3 weeks which is when I get off the boat next is when my apprentice liscense has to be renewed so yeah.[/QUOTE]
- THREE WEEKS? You had BEST get HOT and get SOMETHING in the mail to NMC, get them on the horn or SOMETHING or this talk of renewal will all be in the past tense.
- At 22 I was SCADS smarter than I am now - just sayin’
Country Dog, most of the posts on this thread speak the truth one way or another. I think you need to pump your breaks and down shift into 2nd gear. I am a hawsepiper about to get my 3rd unlimited oceans license. It has been a looooooooong road my friend. I have experience out in the deep blue and in brown water. I have come across the exact mentality you speak of. Unfortunately, it isn’t going away anytime soon. What you can do is be the best deckhand you can be at ALL times. I am living proof that it works. I learned the hard way just like you are now. As I got older and more experienced, I learned to keep my mouth shut and my eyes and ears open. A great deckhand anticipates the officers next move and executes that move when needed. Some mates and captains are assholes and some are not. You must have the mentality that you can learn from everyone whether good or bad. You may learn what not to do from the unprofessional. As a young buck with only 5 years in the industry and starting at 22…you have a lot more to prove before any captain will give you the nod. That is just the way it is…trust me I know from first hand. As stated in another post, look for other employment, secure the new job, then make the move.
As someone that started in this industry at a very young age, I can understand some of what cntrydog is saying. I found that my age was held against me by the “Old Timers” and while any little mess up was blown way out of proportion my good deeds went unnoticed, at least in my mind.
Now with that said, I learned (the HARD WAY) to keep my mouth shut and learn. Some of the shipmates that I learned the most from had little or no formal education.
In the last several years of my sailing career, I found that most of the new crew members coming aboard almost always thought they DESERVED to be in a higher spot and be given more money.
Now a days, it is not uncommon to have a Chief Engineer or someone that is a Licensed Master sailing in lower positions. I have a close friend that sailed for MEBA 1 for over Thirty Years and even though he held a Unlimited Steam and Motor Chief’s License he took whatever job paid the most vacation time. Now he did sail quite a bit as C/E and 1st but he never cared about what position he was sailing in as he was there for the money and vacation time.
I have also know several other people with the same licenses that sat on the beach quite a lot as they would not sail “BENEATH” there license level. This is the problem as I see it, too many people think that just because they hold any and all type of License they DESERVE and SHOULD be sailing in that position. It is almost as if there is some sort of race to reach the top level and no one wants to spend the time to truly learn each and every of the “Lower” Level positions as they pass through them.
I blame the companies for this. My last company pushed people to move up as fast as possible. They were taking crew members that were very happy to stay at whatever position they were in and forcing them to move up the ladder into positions they were sometimes very uncomfortable with. This made for some scary times. I myself sailed with several of these people and would not sleep with them on watch. Before anyone jumps on the, Then Fire Them Bandwagon, the company would not allow it. There were even some Captains that I had made the decision to quite rather than put my life on the line. I am sure that other may have made to same decision about sailing with me. There were some that I sailed with that really disliked but would have sailed around the world with them as they were very good at there job. This goes from the top down. In a perfect world you would never worry about whether anyone has done their job all not. Remember all it takes it for the lowest ranking crew member to forget to secure a water tight door or deck line to make for a very long night.
Even though I sailed as C/E I was always willing to step back and lend a hand doing whatever was needed to complete whatever needed to be done. This is the reason for me being retired now. I was helping one of my A/E’s and an Outside Mechanic with a repair when I was injured. It was never “Beneath” me to help Loading Stores or helping out of deck (if asked and also if I would not be in the way). Sometimes this was taken as me just wanting to help and being a good shipmate but there were times when I was accused of sticking my nose somewhere it did not belong. Knowing how to handle things like this only come with experience.
My hope that any of the newer men and women that decide to make the decision to sail for a living just take the time to learn and do whatever job they sign on board as and stop worrying about moving up any whether or not they think they deserve to move up faster.
To wrap the novel up, I owe my career and all that I learned to the fine “Old Timers” that took the time to teach a wet behind kid the way it should be done. Sometimes I could not understand why they did things but as time went on I found that they were correct. You can not replace Experience and the only way to get said experience is it work at it.
Be Safe and I hope everyone enjoys smooth sailing.