Towboat jobs?

Maritime Employment
41

Bell: You asked a good question.

I have observed over the last 30 (or so) years that these horizontally integrated companies usually end up feeding off one sector or the other. It is rare that both divisions make the same amount of profit. When the new owners figure that out (ala Hornbeck HOS) they tend to either dump the less profitable unit, or make radical changes. Remember when Hornbeck bought Leevac, and the Hess fleet. Everyone was scared shitless of them, A few guys quit other places and went there thinking it was going to be the ‘next big company’ to work for. Then the HOS President finally figured out that the GOM was the place to be (like they were used to) and they just stopped the tug and barge expansion. How many new HOS OSV’s do you see in the maritime reporter, or workboat? When’s the last time you saw a HOS tug in the mags?

In this economy, and with there being a over supply of bottoms, I don’t see how Ksea can be “made” profitable. Too much cutthroat competition only depresses wages and opportunities. A while back I heard through he gravevine that Ksea was doing a several trip contract to Puerto Limon job for cost!!! Just cost. no profit!!! It’s noble to say you’re just trying to keep the guys employed, and the equipment running, but even me, a non owner can figure out that that is pretty dumb way to run a business.

It sounds really simplistic, but these marine companies CAN be managed by MBA’s, and the bean counter divisions, but the ones that seem to stand out are the ones still being managed by actual experienced marine operators. Throw into the mix when an INland corporation buys an OFFshore (coastwise) corporation. These are two distinct separate operating challenges. Usually the ‘ego’s’ of the purchasing company gets in the way of reality.

Time will tell if Kirby will gut and run Ksea, or just cut off the deadwood and keep moving.

42

These are some really interesting perspectives. Guys talk about low wages and good wages, but it’s all relative to the individual taking the job too. What may seem low to one person is not so bad to another. Making 100-150 a day, and living in Louisiana, is probably as good as living in NYC and making 300 a day, maybe. Cost of living would be a huge difference. Personally, I think 100 a day stinks, but if I could get my foot in the door to move up in a company, I’d probably do it, as long as there is upward mobility within the company. Now, with that being said, is accepting a 100/day job perpetuating an industry problem of low pay or could it be considered “paying your dues” or “getting your foot in the door” to move up and onward to a good paying job within the same company? Another thing, the typical inland towboat deckhand doesn’t have any credentials, and can be hired with no expierience. The coastwise type tug jobs all want you to have at least an AB. so does that just mean pay goes up with expierience? I’ve never heard of an inland company requiring an AB to get a deckhand job.

43

You’re right about the relative cost of living. But how much does it cost to buy a gallon of milk, eggs, or a gallon of gas? These costs are pretty equal all over the country.

The thought about where you live is pretty accurate. Say you DO make 150 a day. (versus a NYC wage) Even if taking into account a 400 dollar per year Union fee, wouldn’t the increase in wage cover the cost of flying, driving to work? Plus the option of working even time to have a ‘home life’?

Just to put out there: Once you have been doing this for a while… How many guys are on their 2nd, 3rd, 4th (etc) marriages because of being gone so much?

What IS a ‘living wage’ where you are from? Got any statistics? I think it is pretty equal wherever you go!

44

Cost of housing, state taxes, home heating or or no heat, fuel costs, food costs and so forth. Let me tell you there is a big difference across the country. It is not about the same!

45

[QUOTE=cappy208;47852]yeah. exactly. My Mate makes 526. [\QUOTE]

Where do you work and are you hiring?

46

Over the years I’ve lived in MS, LA, AR, MO, CO, and ME. The cost of living difference between the south and New England is HUGE. A house in MS,AR,LA that would cost $80-100 grand is a 200-400 grand house here in Maine. no joke. Fuel, and taxes are also way more expensive. Things like grocery, and clothes aren’t really any different. Across the board it cost way more to live here than in the south.

47

The gossip we have gotten around here is that Reinauer is going to be getting a few smaller double hull barges from the “ksea” and possibly a few tugs. Heard they are even looking into the Lincoln sea if Kirby will sell it.

48

I’ve been giving "follow up " calls to companies that I’ve applied to. Some of you probably read my other post about the rude woman. The majority of the people I’ve talked to were very nice on the phone. One thing is they ALL say "call back in a couple of weeks, a month, April, ect… Is this some sort of standard answer, or is something happening in April? Also if there is some sort of hiring boom in april, does this happen every year and they lay off in the fall/winter??? thanks guys.

49

The ‘April’ comment is twofold. The hiring does typically pick up in April.
And again in October. The ‘pick up’ in demand for Gasoline in April makes them look to hire a small percentage of employees (to replace whoever has left during the winter.) The same surge in October occurs when the demand for heating oil rises in the fall. Although sometimes this hiring ‘bump’ doesn’t occur!

The second part is: It is to get you off the phone in a polite quick way!

Portman: Call 333 Union hall on Staten Island. Register. If you have the required experience and an excellent resume (with Northeast recency) you may get a shot… However, just so you know, a Mate in the Northeast is generally about as qualified as a Capt. You have to be able to stand your own watch, and having recency is a must. The New York harbor is NOT a place to be trying to learn as you go. You either ‘have it’ or you don’t. Most guys find out if they can ‘cut it’ in New York harbor in a couple days. It IS a concentrated, high volume, lots of general knowledge, and high recency area to operate in. Not everyone can cut it.

50

Sorry, that was a generalization on my part. What I meant was… To live anywhere [U][B]I[/B][/U] want to live, it is relatively similar in price. Regardless of the state, or area. I choose to live in upscale, ‘nice’ locations. These locations cost relatively the same all over the country. The property taxes are similar and the expenses to stay in them has been shown to be close too. Yes, a cheapo place to live in La will be cheaper than a place in the northeast, but I wouldn’t want to live in a place just because it is cheap!

51

The original discussion was about pay. If you work in NY harbor and make say 48K a year for six months as Deckhand, you could work say for Kirby, and make 30K a year (and work 9 months) Which would YOU rather do? work 6 or 9 months? the money is relatively equal. but one has you gone from home for 9 months! Gee sign me up! But I know there are some who say… Damned If I will ever join a Union! Makes sense to me. Just work more for less. You can work in New York, and make a decent wage, and afford to fly home at the end of your hitch. Or you can work for less wage, and uneven time, but be close to home. Your pick. Some people don’t even really understand the difference! (Or that there IS a difference)

52

[QUOTE=KennyW1983;47853]WOW thats $100 a day more than what I make!! I need to just go to NY and deal with the dumbasses…[/QUOTE]

Or you need to just go to NY and earn a decent wage, with the knowledge that there are ‘dumbasses’ everywhere you look, work, and live!

53

For the Pacific Northwest it’s usually April because of the Alaska trade picks up do summer and more freight volumes.

54

[QUOTE=cappy208;47943]Sorry, that was a generalization on my part. What I meant was… To live anywhere [U][B]I[/B][/U] want to live, it is relatively similar in price. Regardless of the state, or area. I choose to live in upscale, ‘nice’ locations. These locations cost relatively the same all over the country. The property taxes are similar and the expenses to stay in them has been shown to be close too. Yes, a cheapo place to live in La will be cheaper than a place in the northeast, but I wouldn’t want to live in a place just because it is cheap![/QUOTE]

Sounds like you’re comparing regions here cappy and I don’t think that’s your intent. It gives the impression that your opinion is anything in LA would be “cheap”, or in a less than desirable area, when compared to some place in the Northeast.

If one compares apples to apples, there are HUGE differences. I live in an upscale, affluent suburb of St Louis. I own a 4 bedroom, 2 1/2 bath, 2400 sqft home on a half acre of land. I paid $220,000 for it in 2009 and it is currently valued at $235,000 (even with depreciation in the housing market that has been experienced). A relatively similar home (same beds & baths) in the same zip code as Mariner’s Harbor on Staten Island is going for $450,000. Now I don’t know about you but I wouldn’t consider anything near Mariner’s Harbor as anything remotely resembling “upscale”. A similar home in Little Neck, NY (which would be a closer match to the area I live in) goes for $1,288,000. Price comparisons don’t get any kinder the farther north you go until north of Boston.

I do agree with you on the daily rate and travel. Why work inland for significantly less money, when other opportunities MAY be available. Some people can’t wrap their minds around living in one area and working in another, either way we’re on a boat 24/7 and we aren’t going to see our families anyway. Still, some people have trouble with that and most of a companies employees are coming from relatively close and wages are based on those local economies.

However, working a 2 for 1 schedule is not necessarily the culprit. Using union wage information (Reinauer 2010) a deckhand would have made $52,000 without the travel per diem included in the calculation. Whereas I made $66,000 and the company paid for my travel directly. My daily rate was about $15 less but the company covers more of the cost of benefits. By the way, that’s for 8 months, not 9, but I am enjoying the hell out of my new equal time schedule.

Personally, I view union vs. non-union as a cost of doing business. If you are not represented by a union there can be certain “costs” associated with such. Costs being monetary and non-monetary, such as respect, work environment, etc. Same is true with being a union member, but with different associated costs.

55

99% of our southerners here want nothing to do with the union, but when the layoffs started 2 years ago they couldnt call 333 fast enough. The ATB I work on is running down south alot right now and we constantly get asked by tankerman down there about jobs and pay. But here is the thing, when we tell them joining union is manditory after 30 days, we hear #@$%$ about joining. Well if you wanna work 28-14 for 100-150 a day less, loading phenol and other GREAT stuff, please dont cry when you hear our deckhand gets 100 a day more than you.

56

The origional question is about towboats on the rivers. I haven’t heard of any of them being union shops, maybe there are some, I don’t know. I have no desire to work on a tug in NYC, or join a union. I appreciate ALL input on this post, but please don’t hijack it to promote unions in areas that have nothing to do with the origional post. If I had to join a union to get a good job I would have to evaluate where my dues go first, most unions contribute to political campaigns that I don’t agree with, and that would cause me to NOT take a job and keep looking. I have my reasons I want to work on the rivers and not other marine jobs, one reason is unions. Where I work now is a union shop and all the union does is protect the slugs that screw up and are lazy. The union has such a grip on the company it’s gonna go out of business eventually because it can’t make a profit with union members screwing off all the time. It’s like the monkeys running the zoo. Maybe other unions aren’t like the one I’m familiar with. Thanks for contributing to the post , but I’m still looking for info on towboat companies, not union vs. non-union shops or pay.

57

Most companies who are non Union are 2 for 1 or 3 for 1. Unfortunately you are looking for ‘Union conditions’ at non union companies. That will be hard (if not impossible) to find. There are some companies out there who do offer even time, but most don’t.

I keep harping about pay because most of these 2 for 1 or 3 for 1 jobs pay (at the end of the year) the same gross pay as the better even time jobs. Just so you and others who are trying to glean information about work, pay, conditions will know the WHOLE employment picture out there. There seems to be a huge lack of awareness concerning work condition, equity and benefits. I can’t understand why some guys would desire to work uneven time, for the same annual gross pay as other even time jobs. Doesn’t your home life matter to you?

58

My home/family matters more to me than any job. That’s why I won’t compromise my values and join a union that I don’t agree wiith, just for higher pay or a few more days off. To each his own I guess. I do want to thank you for your input though. Keep the opinions coming! This has been a great thread. Any new news from the river companies???

59

Cappy 208,
Have you had a new contract lately? Last time I checked, lots of East coasters were coming to the GOM to make more money, lots more money for a day rate. I assume your wife also works in order to be able to afford a comfortable lifestyle because if you are a mate or captain you are making about 82k to a 100k a year. I do not know what your other benifits contribute to your salary.
Who watches the kids? Who is there to raise them properly?
I work a 2 for one so I can give my family a comfortable life style too and allow my wife to stay home to raise the kids. She is there to pick them up from school, make them a real dinner, go to their sports games, etc. When I am off she is off too. We go wherever we want and not worry about work. In short we are doing what FAMILY oriented people do, we raise our kids the best way we can. Once they start driving she can go back to work. Once they are out of college and on their own I will have plenty of money extra and I can work day for day if I choose.
I am sure you have some better benifits than me such as travel pay, but I know I make more than my counterparts at Penn, Ksea, etc., etc. My health, and dental is paid 100% and the company gives us an annual match to our 401k depending on how business was that year.
Also, the equipment I work on is very new and state of the art, not old retrofitted junk that the east coast seems to love for the most part.
All this I and others like me down here in “The Patch” recieve without paying one penny to people who turn around and give it to crooked politicians.

60

Cajun, The Gulf is not all what you make it out to be. If your referring to state of the art tugs then think again to the ATBs that are out. What’s so state of the art about a 150’ tug that supposively has a dp 1 system that doesn’t work? As far as supply boat being state of the art, we are way behind the european companies with dp-3 vessels and Ulstien design vessels. As far as 100% payed benefits go, not many offer it and if they do it’s a crappy plan. I work for one of the major company’s and talked to HOS and Harvey. There’s no much difference in pay and not to mention those two took pay cuts and some layoffs. The Gulf boats have too much BS on them. Always some BS going on with the crew to the captain that thinks he is god because he has a 1600 ton master near coastal with a 6000 ton osv endorsement. Pay between the gulf and east coast companies aren’t far apart atleast for engineers. I worked on the east coast for McAllister prior to going back to union and left because I could drive to work here in Louisiana and they took my travel pay and a pay cutf.
I’ll work on a tug out of New York any time away from the oil filed BS for $10 less a day. If McAllister was union we would have never loss the travel pay and pay cut. I have less responsibility with just loading fuel and service oil on a tug versus mud and all the other crap for 10 less a day. Not to mention deal with a ECP program because some retard decided to bypass the OWS and illegally pump over oil.
Bottom line there is good and bad with whatever route you take. As far as engineers, you can’t beat a tugboat pushing a barge versus the oil field with OSV or AHTS. And I don’t work 2 for 1 in the Gulf, I work 1 for 1.