[QUOTE=catherder;97452]Subsequent encounters of USMMA grads have been plus-minus, generally, they are almost always the ones who ask what academy I went to, and sneer or smirk when my worthless blue collar ass tells them I went to Old Dominion University on the GI bill and graduated merely magna cum laude; I guess that means I am not worthy to shine their fucking shoes then but it doesn’t bother me as much as it used to.
My current philosophy is to keep conversation to a minimum and go about my business because pretentious caste nazis are everywhere in this business and there is no way to be rid of them.[/QUOTE]
Stop this, have you been reading my posts, I am a KP graduate, fuck KP, make it on your own merits, that always works.
[QUOTE=Sweat-n-Grease;97455]Stop this, have you been reading my posts, I am a KP graduate, fuck KP, make it on your own merits, that always works.[/QUOTE]
You are too fast for me, I edited that part, but I don’t regret writing it. I was always a hard-work kind of person and harder still for being female in a guys world. If I run into this jerk again I will gut punch him. His comments cut to the quick. Please I hope you don’t take offense.
[QUOTE=catherder;97457]You are too fast for me, I edited that part, but I don’t regret writing it. I was always a hard-work kind of person and harder still for being female in a guys world. If I run into this jerk again I will gut punch him. His comments cut to the quick. Please I hope you don’t take offense.[/QUOTE]
If you do run into him again and need bail money let me know, I am sure I can get a collection going!
[QUOTE=catherder;97457]You are too fast for me, I edited that part, but I don’t regret writing it. I was always a hard-work kind of person and harder still for being female in a guys world. If I run into this jerk again I will gut punch him. His comments cut to the quick. Please I hope you don’t take offense.[/QUOTE]
I don’t take offense. catherder, I don’t like bullies either, several high stepping strutters with big mouths have caught the business end of my fists. I don’t recommend it but I agree, when you have had enough sometimes a solid gut punch evens the playing field. What I intended to get across is simply this, in life you will find such ass holes. I am entirely on your side.
Worked with a Maine Maritime grad who’s brother went to Kings Point. We got a new 2nd engineer (he and I worked together before) who I knew went to Piney Point with the SIU and worked his way up. We were having lunch and the Maine guy asked the new second where he went to school. The second says “The Point”. The Maine grad starts asking the 2nd if he knew his brother at KP. Mike finally says I went to Piney Point. I thought the 2nd handled it well. Who gives a shit where you went.
[QUOTE=Too bad steam is gone;97502]Who gives a shit where you went.[/QUOTE]
So true ~
The playing field is level when you sign-on, from that time on the ball is in your court. If you can handle it well that’s fine, if not, ask for help. We all have asked for assistance some where all the way. I believe in a team, never met an engineer who knew it all although I did run into a few who mistakenly thought they did.
Not sure really what to do. I have called out the Academies, the USCG, the Associations and the Unions. No intelligent response from any. Gcaptain may not be the right forum for such a discussion. I was hoping that people could log in anonymously and have a frank conversation and feel safe from consequences by their employer / Union, etc.
So, last chance. Any comments on the ‘beginning’ part of this thread?
Not sure really what to do. I have called out the Academies, the USCG, the Associations and the Unions. No intelligent response from any. Gcaptain may not be the right forum for such a discussion. I was hoping that people could log in anonymously and have a frank conversation and feel safe from consequences by their employer / Union, etc.
So, last chance. Any comments on the ‘beginning’ part of this thread?[/QUOTE]
There has been a lot of discussion here in the last few days. Many topics have been covered by many industry professionals from many different backgrounds. To any casual observer I think it could be said that just about every nook and cranny of this debate has been hashed out in one way or another, if not in great detail, then at least in broad strokes. If you are dissatisfied with the turnout, C.TurnAndBank, do not blame gCaptain, and don’t blame the professionals who have answered your call, either. Blame yourself.
You came to a group of dedicated professionals to call their chosen professions to account. Now they have and you chose to pout in disappointment. I have a sneaking suspicion that what you were looking for was not a group of intelligent professionals but a herd of cattle you could lead around and get to follow you on whatever your crusade might be, and I’m still not sure what that is since you would not answer when asked exactly what you were after. I think I speak for all of the real professionals on this forum when I say: we’re done here.
Not sure really what to do. I have called out the Academies, the USCG, the Associations and the Unions. No intelligent response from any. Gcaptain may not be the right forum for such a discussion. I was hoping that people could log in anonymously and have a frank conversation and feel safe from consequences by their employer / Union, etc.
So, last chance. Any comments on the ‘beginning’ part of this thread?[/QUOTE]
Only my opinion, C.TurnAndBank, the answer can be found in the replies. We all agree things are now sliding down a negative slope, all the agencies you called out are complicit. More than that, our Nation has a sordid history of turning its back on its Merchant Marine. It’s in our Nation’s dna. Now, I ask you, how can we turn this around?
Academy’s put out 3rd mates and 3rd engineers not Master’s and Chief engineers. When I was on the school cruise I had to: maneuver the ship (throttle), start and stop every major system, put a boiler on line, start a feed pump,start and parallel a generator the take it back off, on the cruise. Some cadets on commercial ships don’t get that training. I as chief or 1st always let the cadet do everything a 3rd engineer is supposed to know when they graduate including:starting and paralleling generators, start and stop main engine including engine side control,starting evaps,taking on lubes and fuel, and flushing out the shit tank. Lots of safety equipment checks too.
[QUOTE=Too bad steam is gone;97514]Academy’s put out 3rd mates and 3rd engineers not Master’s and Chief engineers. When I was on the school cruise I had to: maneuver the ship (throttle), start and stop every major system, put a boiler on line, start a feed pump,start and parallel a generator the take it back off, on the cruise. Some cadets on commercial ships don’t get that training. I as chief or 1st always let the cadet do everything a 3rd engineer is supposed to know when they graduate including:starting and paralleling generators, start and stop main engine including engine side control,starting evaps,taking on lubes and fuel, and flushing out the shit tank. Lots of safety equipment checks too.[/QUOTE]
When I did my Cadet shipping all those years ago, I was lucky enough to have sailed with Chiefs and Firsts that gave me a long leash and access to the tool room. Even one that seemed to have a hard on for me (when I signed on to the ship, he told me that he had a son with the same first name as mine - and that was unusual - and that he wasn’t worth a shit either. Day one. Lovely. At least this was the 5th ship that I signed on to and was fairly seasoned to crap like that) ended up reluctantly giving me a positive review. I did end up having a lot of crappy jobs thrown at me, but they were all learning experiences. I certainly learned more about being part of an engine room crew AND marine engineering during my Cadet shipping than I did at KP. Oh, and about myself, too.
I’m not sure where the OP gets his information, he is talking about sea time lacking. Myself, I am a hawsepiper, but I know many Maine grads on the engineering side. They have to have 512 sea days before they can graduate. That includes two school cruises and cadet shipping, as well as standing watch x days per week while in school. I think that is as sufficient as you’re going to get anywhere, unless you go to Britain’s system of shipping out at 16.
If anything, the decline of the mariner is much less than the decline of the rest of our country and its schooling system. Dumbed down, liberal educations more intent on rewriting history and making you feel good about your paper on the wall for the last few generations have installed poor morals, poor critical thinking, and poor gumption in our people that is getting passed down to their children. For most people, the realities of being at sea will weed out those who can’t take it. For me, those who can’t take it don’t bother me, as they don’t stick around anyhow. Those who are poor engineers or not good people are either a danger or a hindrance to the morale of the engine room, and they usually don’t stick around either. I’ve worked with foreign engineers (British, Canadian, Polish, Croatian, Ukrainian) and Americans as well. There is honestly no difference in the number of quality engineers nor the intelligence levels that come and go. If anything the American system works a bit better BECAUSE it is easier to upgrade your license. In international shipping it is hard to find 1sts and harder to find good ones because of the requirements, especially having to go back to school and miss work.
To explain, and I can’t say how it is on the bridge, but good engineers get promoted, and those who don’t cut it get cut. A free market approach to promotion ensures the best are getting the spots instead of the only guy who was able to go to school and get the paper or having to bring someone in from the outside.
[QUOTE=Too bad steam is gone;97514]Academy’s put out 3rd mates and 3rd engineers not Master’s and Chief engineers. When I was on the school cruise I had to: maneuver the ship (throttle), start and stop every major system, put a boiler on line, start a feed pump,start and parallel a generator the take it back off, on the cruise. Some cadets on commercial ships don’t get that training. I as chief or 1st always let the cadet do everything a 3rd engineer is supposed to know when they graduate including:starting and paralleling generators, start and stop main engine including engine side control,starting evaps,taking on lubes and fuel, and flushing out the shit tank. Lots of safety equipment checks too.[/QUOTE]
Good point. You have to monitor people but they need to get into it to learn.
I had a third mate with a second’s license a couple trips ago. He called me to the bridge for a ship crossing ahead from stbd to port with small CPA. WTF? Why don’t you just come right and go behind him? The third told me that all his previous captains wanted to be in the wheelhouse for any traffic situations. You need to build the capability of the crew not try do everything yourself.
[QUOTE=PaddyWest2012;97510]There has been a lot of discussion here in the last few days. Many topics have been covered by many industry professionals from many different backgrounds. To any casual observer I think it could be said that just about every nook and cranny of this debate has been hashed out in one way or another, if not in great detail, then at least in broad strokes. If you are dissatisfied with the turnout, C.TurnAndBank, do not blame gCaptain, and don’t blame the professionals who have answered your call, either. Blame yourself.
You came to a group of dedicated professionals to call their chosen professions to account. Now they have and you chose to pout in disappointment. I have a sneaking suspicion that what you were looking for was not a group of intelligent professionals but a herd of cattle you could lead around and get to follow you on whatever your crusade might be, and I’m still not sure what that is since you would not answer when asked exactly what you were after. I think I speak for all of the real professionals on this forum when I say: we’re done here.[/QUOTE]
Please don’t mis-read, there has been a lot of intelligent conversation and great discussion. What I was looking for were individuals (from those areas) that would argue the point not rally around my point of view. An individual just recently said that Maine Maritime Academy provides 512 days of sea-time for their engineering graduates. I do not believe that is correct, unless you count standing watch in a lab (not an underway ship) as sea-time. The actual amount of sea-time for the ‘unlimited’ program is more like 6 months total. Again, this is outside the boundaries of the STCW, so why are the Academies / United States allowed to do this? Anyone that works at Maine Maritime Academy have any comments? Does anyone know anyone to forward this so they can share their view / opinion?
There is nobody to ‘herd’ here. That is not the intent. Don’t you ever just want answers? I wasn’t looking for a ‘sharing of my opinion’, I was looking for a reason ‘why’? The counter points? The arguments against what I am saying. I find it strange that you are so offended by this discussion.
[QUOTE=Sweat-n-Grease;97513]Only my opinion, C.TurnAndBank, the answer can be found in the replies. We all agree things are now sliding down a negative slope, all the agencies you called out are complicit. More than that, our Nation has a sordid history of turning its back on its Merchant Marine. It’s in our Nation’s dna. Now, I ask you, how can we turn this around?[/QUOTE]
Phew… That is not a simple one. I am actually somewhat afraid to answer this question, as there are those on this blog who believe this is entirely self serving. I think step one is to get the United States to comply with STCW in its entirety, that alone would make a very big difference. How would we go about doing that, not really sure.
Some examples. The United States is 100% our of compliance with STCW on the following areas: (I expect there are more)
Requirements to move up the Hawesepipe to Licensed Engineer.
Requirements for Mates to Move up to Captain on vessels under 1600 GRT
The Maritime Academies are exempt form the sea-time requirements of STCW
Fishing vessels are exempt from just about everything. (Did you know there is actually an STCW code specifically for Fishing, which we should comply with)
This is an embarrassment for not only the United States, but for the Merchant Mariner when we are told to defend ourselves for having adequate training.
At the end of the day, I expect we will get there. We will have another large incident, where the fact that the USCG is not complying with STCW will come to light. Or, a foreign port will be upset at the United States, and will hold our mariners to the same level of training that they hold theirs. Or some crazy blogger will bring all of this to light, and somebody will read his/her crazy self serving blogs and decide to ‘ask the right questions to the right people.’
C.TurnAndBank, I have been following this thread and felt that I needed to jump in. You have been asked several times why you are asking these questions, now I am not saying that you are incorrect in what you are posting.
I am sure that the U.S.C.G. needs to step up and get in line but everything that youpost is against the U.S. I am sure that every other country that signed on the STCW is following all of the rules perfectly. Why don’t you post some of these other countries procedures so we could judge ourselves. Your last post mentioned that maybe these “Needed” changes will come after a major incident. Let’s see, I guess that Ships of other Flags (example F.O.C.) never have any problems. I have seen some pretty bad ships come into this country that have had crews that were living in horrendous conditions.
The way I see this either you are writing a paper and wanting others to do your leg work or for some reason or you are anti U.S. Merchant Mariners.
[QUOTE=Tugs;97555]C.TurnAndBank, I have been following this thread and felt that I needed to jump in. You have been asked several times why you are asking these questions, now I am not saying that you are incorrect in what you are posting.
I am sure that the U.S.C.G. needs to step up and get in line but everything that youpost is against the U.S. I am sure that every other country that signed on the STCW is following all of the rules perfectly. Why don’t you post some of these other countries procedures so we could judge ourselves. Your last post mentioned that maybe these “Needed” changes will come after a major incident. Let’s see, I guess that Ships of other Flags (example F.O.C.) never have any problems. I have seen some pretty bad ships come into this country that have had crews that were living in horrendous conditions.
The way I see this either you are writing a paper and wanting others to do your leg work or for some reason or you are anti U.S. Merchant Mariners.
Rant Off, if I offended anyone I do apologize.[/QUOTE]
I’m glad someone else brought up other countries because there is a point that I have been thinking about here for a while, but have not yet made. A few years ago in 2010 when STCW was re-discussed in London a big part of that discussion was sea time. C.TurnAndBank hit the crux of the issue right where the conference hit it back in 2010: is getting free sea time for attending an academy right? Well one country stood alone against all others at the conference with the idea that students should get the full compliment of sea time and not be given any for free just for attending an academy. That country was Norway. When I asked someone who attended the conference how the debate with the Norwegians went his reply was “They definitely pushed the issue… and they definitely lost.” All but one signatory of the newest version of the STCW treaty are fine with the way things are done in regards to sea time.
Not anti US Merchant Marine and not writing a paper. I believe if you went back and read my posts, you would see that.
I have information to share, that others may not have known. This continues to get personal, and I very much apologize if I have offended anyone. I love the United States Merchant Marine. I owe everything to it, and I would hate to see that there is any further ammunition to attack the Jones Act. The last savior to the U.S. Merchant Marine.
Have done my best to keep this as professional as possible.