The Declining U.S. mariner

Professional Mariner Forum
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Maritime Academies today are adding a new degree every year and have lost their roots. Academy graduates are coming to our industry with an ‘Unlimited License’ with as little as three month’s of sea-time. Let’s say on average (with the exception of Kings Point) maritime academies provide four months of sea-time on their school ships. (Parking lot watch does not count!!) 120 Days x 24 Hours = 2,880 hours. Of that at least 30% of their time is shoreside, so let’s say 2,000 hours of underway time. With a cadet load of 200 on the training ship, that is 10 Hours of Conning time per student. Seriously?? The problem is so bad that academies are putting simulators on the vessel so their students can get some time actual watchkeeping time. Perhaps I am exaggeration. Maybe they get 20 hours of time at the conn.

The STCW clearly states that a minimum of 365 days of sea-time is required 180 days of which are required to stand watch. The United States Maritime Academies seem to be exempt. Comments from USCG??

The Hawespipe. The Hawsepipe is the foundation of becoming a mariner, and some of the best mariners out there came up the ranks. However, today, there are no ordinary seaman left which means it is almost impossible to move up the ladder. In addition the officers are overwhelmed with paperwork and reduced manning to be a proper mentor. How do individuals moving up the Hawespipe today get the time at the Conn?

The Hawespiper also has to battle with the training, which everyone complains about. However… Did you know… The USCG interprets the STCW to the very Bare Minimum? Literally the United States requires a tiny fraction of the amount of training as our International Counterparts. In fact, the training requirements have been reduced in half by the United States Coast Guard. Why?

A common thread on gcaptain in regards to the area of training is to do the least for the least. Why not? Why learn the rules of the road, when you can memorize them? Someone with a good memory today, can ace the exam without understanding a thing. Just about every maritime graduates knows of people that knew exactly what was on the test before they even took it. A,C,D,D,B,B,C,C,B,A. Aced Nav Problems !!

Advanced Technologies, Reduced Manning, Increased Traffic, More Responsibilities – Is this the answer. Less sea-time, less training, more memorization?

Please, help me regain some faith. – comments?

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It ain’t just the academies who get away with the bare STCW minimum. How much STCW training and assessment is needed to go to Master 500 or 1600? How much time while holding an OICNW endorsement is needed? How much total time for Master 500 or 1600 NC? ( the answer to all is less than the minimum STCW requires)

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Not all academy’s and majors are created equal. Not to say i disagree with the bar being set low, but on the water experience varies. Any legitimate program requires at least 90 more days of experience on a commercial vessel in addition to the cruises.

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Joe Stalin was an optimist compared to myself. I think young people don’t want to get dirty to earn a living. A boy who swam on swim team with my daughter went my alma mata and couldn’t put up with the regimental bullshit. He saw the Jacques Cousteau majors (marine biology with no hope of landing a job) with the big screen tv’s in their rooms having a good time and he needed immediate gratification. He flunked out anyway. It is pervasive in society among young people. My 30 something neighbor wants what I have and I’m 54 and earned everything I OWN. He is one paycheck from financial disaster. It’s everywhere not just in our industry.

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[QUOTE=Too bad steam is gone;97065]Joe Stalin was an optimist compared to myself. I think young people don’t want to get dirty to earn a living. A boy who swam on swim team with my daughter went my alma mata and couldn’t put up with the regimental bullshit. He saw the Jacques Cousteau majors (marine biology with no hope of landing a job) with the big screen tv’s in their rooms having a good time and he needed immediate gratification. He flunked out anyway. It is pervasive in society among young people. My 30 something neighbor wants what I have and I’m 54 and earned everything I OWN. He is one paycheck from financial disaster. It’s everywhere not just in our industry.[/QUOTE]

Where is my GD Thanks button when I want it?
Thank you for this post.

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[QUOTE=z-drive;97063]Not all academy’s and majors are created equal. Not to say i disagree with the bar being set low, but on the water experience varies. Any legitimate program requires at least 90 more days of experience on a commercial vessel in addition to the cruises.[/QUOTE]

The STCW requires a minimum of one year of sea-time. Not even the United States Merchant Marine Academy provides that. Show me any State School that provides more than 6 months. Kings Point is a federal school, not State.

So, with six month’s of sea-time, I can take responsibility of a ‘super tanker’?

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These friggin Academy kids…nothing but a bunch of educated dumb asses if you ask me. They would rather be studying than standing watch, whine that they never have money - even though they work summer jobs and squander it all on books, off campus food and gasoline. They bitch about standing the midnight watch the day before finals. They even resent getting up before dawn to pass inspections. They get no sympathy.

The deckies have to be spoon fed as to what to do at a real helm because most their navigation is on a simulator. Back in the good old days, we got our helm experience with a couple thousand tons of steel under us while burning a barrel of bunker a mile.

Yeah, this younger generation…declining into the abyss -. They should be more like us, huh?

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Oh my what short memories we have. I can remember, barely, when I started in this business the people that started with me. Most either couldn’t cut it or decided another life was better for them. The academy or college grads were just as dumb then as they are now. The wipers were happy with their lot and didn’t want to hawsepipe or they did so. Damn, if all the grads, OSs and Wipers loved this job and had the fortitude to move up do you think we’d be anything special? Do you think we’d be in demand? Nothing changes just the players.

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I did when i graduated, but whats the big deal? Good, wow, they have a license. But shame on a company or officer for letting them have any responsibility unless they have some experience and can prove they know what they are doing. Thats how it was for me when i came up, and haven’t seen it change. Been personally sailing after an academy for a decade-ish and if i changed to a different type of vessel/operation even with “all that sea time” I wouldn’t be left alone at first…Not until i’ve proven i know what i am doing. I don’t know too many green 3rd mates being left to stand a watch the first day they report to a ship.

[QUOTE=C.TurnAndBank;97071]The STCW requires a minimum of one year of sea-time. Not even the United States Merchant Marine Academy provides that. Show me any State School that provides more than 6 months. Kings Point is a federal school, not State.
So, with six month’s of sea-time, I can take responsibility of a ‘super tanker’?[/QUOTE]

Are you a king’s point apologist? I smell a little troll B.O… What, 5 posts, all complaints? If you dislike the merchant marine so much, why dick around on a merchant marine forum?

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I’m not sure the OP got my sarcasm.

If not, I was about to show this washed up curmudgen what one of these youngies are capable of if you piss us off too much.

Here’s a small taste of the pointy stick, 2013 cadet style:

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[quote=jetryder223;97081]i’m not sure the op got my sarcasm.

If not, i was about to show this washed up curmudgen what one of these youngies are capable of if you piss us off too much.

Here’s a small taste of the pointy stick, 2013 cadet style:[/quote]

eff you and your stoopid little cartoon!

.

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[ATTACH]2868[/ATTACH]

That’s how he sharpens his cadet “pointy stick”

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I enjoyed reading this thread. I am one of those so called academy brats. You get some good academy people and bad, much like there are good hawsepipers and those that can barely fill out the log book. While I did graduate from Cal in 2008, I can honestly say it is not just the maritime industry that is suffering. I may be young, at 27 years young, but I see the lack of hard work the younger generation wants to do. I grew up in a family of entrepreneurs, and hard working men. The values and skills I have learned from those people in my life were passed onto me as I will one day pass onto my children. Fact is you have to bust your hump and do your job to earn what you want. I admit I was scared shit less my first ship. They had no 3rd engineer so the 2nd was showing the relieving 2nd and I everything I had done. He breezed through everything so fast my head was spinning. I didn’t know which end was up. I knew how an MSD and purifiers worked, but not this particular ships systems. It was sink or swim time. I was straight out with the 1rst and chief that this was my first ship ( ITB Baltimore RIP) . The 1rst understood and helped me out calming my nerves and being a great guide in things on this vessel. I took the tech manuals to my room to study and made sure I was around when things needed to be maintained and fixed. I took the initiative to trace systems and learn everything I could about equipment. It took till my second trip, but I was fully capable of running one of those ITB engine rooms. So believe it or not, there are a few of us good ones out there. I’ve always been willing to help fellow engineers, whether they are new 3rds, oilers, or wipers. I always gave oilers and QMED’s who had been on the ship a long time, the utmost respect. I learned that us engineers are a team down below. We all want to do a great job, make a good living, and get home.

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Do you think the crewmen in the 1800s complained about the Midns who could barely shave? This is the way the industry’s been for hundreds of years. Hawspipers being this common is pretty recent. As for the seatime thing, I think they ruled a long time ago that time aboard a Training ship counts for more.
A lot of these cadets, if they can pass license, are just as good as they’ve ever been. Yea a new 3rd who’s hawspiped will know more but he’s usually been working in the industry for years. He didn’t have to go to class and take Calc, Physics and business classes.

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I am not going to touch the Academy Vs Hawspipe debate but I will say speaking from an engineering standpoint that a person needs to know theory as well as practical.

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There are some stupid and I mean stupid ass hawespipers out there and there are some stupid and I mean stupid ass academy guys out there. Although some may take a bit of a different route. The best mariners come from both sides. Its just like anything else. I seems like the people that argue about this are the people that seem to be jealous about the other’s path to where they are.

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All I know is that I never wanted to go to an academy. When I finished HS I had been working around tugs my whole life and wanted to work up through the hawse. Had dinner with my old man my senior year and he told me don’t be a moron with all the new regulations and bullshit that is changing, get a degree and big license and skip all the BS. Best advise I ever got, meet a ton of good people took a lot of BS classes that had nothing to do with working tugs. But in the end I got a well rounded degree and a license to run tugs in the same time it would have taken through the hawse. I tell all the young people I meet now go to PMI or the Academy and stay one step ahead of the game, it’s up to you to put in the time working on the side to hone your skills to become a good shipmate and earn respect.

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Your post drips with irony!

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If I could start over and do it again I would have gone to one of the acadamys. SUNY TAMU or KP. If I had done that I probably could have my chief mates by now.

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Some people WIII judge you on your degree, ABS for example. You might know how finish Einsteins unified theory but they won’t hire you without a BS degree. My friend went to Calhoun school and sailed chief for 12 years on tankers/lash/container and he would never be considered for an ABS job because he did not get a degree. As far a engineers go I learned more from a hawsepiper from the NYC John Brown school than any academy guy. There are good and bad from either side of the boat/ship IMHO