The Declining U.S. mariner

[QUOTE=C.TurnAndBank;97136]Thank you… I should have mentioned, that the Workboat Academy is a ‘vocational’ training program with one year of sea-time. However, they do not provide an Unlimited License, I believe they provide a 1600 GRT license. I also recently read an advertisement from them, that they are getting 90% + retention and 100% placement. This could be the future.[/QUOTE]

This sounds strikingly like the V.O.T. program at Maine Maritime. What is the general consensus on limited-license academy graduates (other than the workboat academy)?

to require formal training for an Able Seafarer to become a Mate.

Please elaborate?

Worked for me. Well balanced. As hands on as r gets. And Maine engineers are rarely seen in a uniform without oil stains…

[QUOTE=Jemplayer;97181]Please elaborate?[/QUOTE]

As I understand it… the International Model for training to advanced someone from an Able Seafarer to Mate (STCW) is over 1,200 hours of classroom / lab / simulation.

The United States Coast Guard interpreted the STCW and required only 700 Hours (the least of any industrialized nation) back in 2002 (ish). Recently, they have reduced the 700 hours of required training to about 200 Hours. In other words, there is no longer any formal training requirements for Navigation, Rules of the Road, Watchkeeping, etc… A U.S. Mariner can self study, memorize some questions, and then convince their co-worker to sign off some boxes which states that the he/she is competent. (I challenge anyone to find a country that does not require formal training in Navigation to become an STCW officer).

Hopefully, most Mates and Captains are not signing off competency like that, but the ability is certainly there.It is embarrassing, and the USCG should set a higher standard (my opinion).

It is interesting, because my point of view stems from Professional Witness cases which I have had to try and defend the competence of a mariner. Much like a previous post. I am waiting for the day, that the U.S. Mariner is not allowed in to a foreign port due to the lack of training. An example, Canada requires over 1000 hours of formal training to advance to the level of Mate of Towing. So, why should Canada allow U.S. mariners to occupy their waterways, when the USCG interprets STCW so very differently?

Does anyone know some Maritime Academy instructors / etc or USCG representatives that would like to comment on this forum? You can e-mail the conversation by clicking on ‘e-mail this’ below.

[QUOTE=z-drive;97187]Worked for me. Well balanced. As hands on as r gets. And Maine engineers are rarely seen in a uniform without oil stains…[/QUOTE]

I have heard nothing but positive things about the Limited License program from Maine Maritime. Very ‘vocational’ / hands on.

[QUOTE=C.TurnAndBank;97189]I am waiting for the day, that the U.S. Mariner is not allowed in to a foreign port due to the lack of training,[/QUOTE]

How are you going to get competent well trained mariners to sail to foreign ports in the face of declining (in real terms) wages, loss of pensions, increasing workload, and criminalization? When I started sailing I was motivated to do whatever was required to get my credentials and sail deep-sea because I wanted a good, high paying job. What is the motivation today for someone who can earn a living elsewhere?

K.C.

[QUOTE=C.TurnAndBank;97189]As I understand it… the International Model for training to advanced someone from an Able Seafarer to Mate (STCW) is over 1,200 hours of classroom / lab / simulation.

The United States Coast Guard interpreted the STCW and required only 700 Hours (the least of any industrialized nation) back in 2002 (ish). Recently, they have reduced the 700 hours of required training to about 200 Hours. In other words, there is no longer any formal training requirements for Navigation, Rules of the Road, Watchkeeping, etc… A U.S. Mariner can self study, memorize some questions, and then convince their co-worker to sign off some boxes which states that the he/she is competent. (I challenge anyone to find a country that does not require formal training in Navigation to become an STCW officer).

Hopefully, most Mates and Captains are not signing off competency like that, but the ability is certainly there.It is embarrassing, and the USCG should set a higher standard (my opinion).

It is interesting, because my point of view stems from Professional Witness cases which I have had to try and defend the competence of a mariner. Much like a previous post. I am waiting for the day, that the U.S. Mariner is not allowed in to a foreign port due to the lack of training. An example, Canada requires over 1000 hours of formal training to advance to the level of Mate of Towing. So, why should Canada allow U.S. mariners to occupy their waterways, when the USCG interprets STCW so very differently?

Does anyone know some Maritime Academy instructors / etc or USCG representatives that would like to comment on this forum? You can e-mail the conversation by clicking on ‘e-mail this’ below.[/QUOTE]

You started by bitchin’ about the academies, and now you’re on the hawsepipers? What’s your stake in this? Got any research/data that the status quo is insufficient, other than your interpretation of STCW?

[QUOTE=Archimedes;97201]You started by bitchin’ about the academies, and now you’re on the hawsepipers? What’s your stake in this? Got any research/data that the status quo is insufficient, other than your interpretation of STCW?[/QUOTE]

Please read my posts. This has nothing to do with Hawsepipers / nor my interpretation of STCW. This has everything to do with the ‘system’. If anything I am concerned that the Hawsepipe system will go away. I have provided a lot of data, what specifically are you interested in? IMO Model Course 7.03 is the exact publication i was referencing.

I have invited experts to comment, and from the very beginning I have asked. ‘Prove me wrong’ as well as requesting that we keep this professional and not personal.

Then please answer Archi’s question. ‘What is your stake in this’.

No one wants to ‘prove you wrong’ but you’re asking some indepth questions. With only a handful of posts and little in your profile, we don’t know who we are talking to. Some context would be helpful.

[QUOTE=Kennebec Captain;97196]How are you going to get competent well trained mariners to sail to foreign ports in the face of declining (in real terms) wages, loss of pensions, increasing workload, and criminalization? When I started sailing I was motivated to do whatever was required to get my credentials and sail deep-sea because I wanted a good, high paying job. What is the motivation today for someone who can earn a living elsewhere?

K.C.[/QUOTE]

The Profession of a Merchant Mariner is amazing. We live in a world with high unemployment rates, colleges that are almost impossible to get in to, companies that no longer pay benefits, retirement is almost a thing of the past, if I am lucky enough to get a job out of college, Average college graduate makes $45K and is probably lucky to get two weeks of vacation. With a Master’s degree you may earn 20K more (at best). Either option, you are saddled with debt and are lucky to save a penny.

What is the motivation today? If the motivation is money and a job, then the career should not be considered. If the motivation is a passion to go to sea and to enjoy the ability to ‘not take home your work’ with extended vacations, then this may be a good fit. Are there people out there that have that motivation. Absolutely !! The problem is that many mariners who started the profession have a very different career today than what they started with. So I understand the feeling that ‘this isn’t what I signed up for’. But today, we can do a better job of educating people about the profession and ensure good people come in that have reasonable expectations.

A great Youtube Saturday Night Live parody: – http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ybDKfGEw4aU :

At the end of the day, it is all relative. There are hundreds of thousands of people out there that would see what we do and what we make as ‘the dream’. Our International counterparts are making a fraction and working much more. Absolutely not where we want to go, but we have to understand what the competitive pressures and do the best we can in the area of building competence and finding the right people. Let’s work on increasing the competence, and then demanding higher wages because we are the best.

In this bloggers opinion, it is a mistake to think that our careers are not coveted.

[QUOTE=Jetryder223;97204]Then please answer Archi’s question. ‘What is your stake in this’.

No one wants to ‘prove you wrong’ but you’re asking some indepth questions. With only a handful of posts and little in your profile, we don’t know who we are talking to. Some context would be helpful.[/QUOTE]

What I am hoping for is to get some players at the table to discuss an important topic. Please do not use your real name if you are not comfortable going public, or if doing so may compromise you in one way or the other. Trying to open up a conversation that needs to be had. What is there to gain? I really don’t know; sometimes you just want to call it as you see it and invite contrast. I am not close minded, that is why i am inviting constructive thought.

[QUOTE=C.TurnAndBank;97206]What I am hoping for is to get some players at the table to discuss an important topic. Please do not use your real name if you are not comfortable going public, or if doing so may compromise you in one way or the other. Trying to open up a conversation that needs to be had. What is there to gain? I really don’t know; sometimes you just want to call it as you see it and invite contrast. I am not close minded, that is why i am inviting constructive thought.[/QUOTE]

C.TurnAndBank, either you are for real or you are fucking with us. Doesn’t matter to me which way it is. I enjoy your posts. You bet, my friend, things have to change, but how, and when? Our Nation has yet again turned its back on the US Merchant Marine. We are use to it. Your user name evokes aviation to me, again, doesn’t matter, both are similar mediums.
.

I thought it was an aviation reference too.

As for training, the only way it will be relevant is if the US actually cares about its merchant fleet. Our deep sea is mostly dead. The point of an unlimited mate is to stand watch on an unlimited vessel. 'Course we don’t have much of them any more so thus the huge spill over into vessels that only require 1600T. In the academy were taught as if we are going to be operating a Tanker, containership, Cruise Ship, Dry bulk, etc. I don’t blame them for it; we have to have the appropriate knowledge for them, since we’re being licensed for them.

But who comes to our Job Fairs to recruit us? Vane, Kirby, KSea, Hornbeck. You get the idea. MMP and AMO come too, along with MSC, offering unlimited tonnage jobs. And I know people who’ve been hired by Shell and Celebrity. But the point is the US deep sea fleet is barely on life-support.

[QUOTE=C.TurnAndBank;97205]The Profession of a Merchant Mariner is amazing. We live in a world with high unemployment rates, colleges that are almost impossible to get in to, companies that no longer pay benefits, retirement is almost a thing of the past, if I am lucky enough to get a job out of college, Average college graduate makes $45K and is probably lucky to get two weeks of vacation. With a Master’s degree you may earn 20K more (at best). Either option, you are saddled with debt and are lucky to save a penny.

What is the motivation today? If the motivation is money and a job, then the career should not be considered. If the motivation is a passion to go to sea and to enjoy the ability to ‘not take home your work’ with extended vacations, then this may be a good fit. Are there people out there that have that motivation. Absolutely !! The problem is that many mariners who started the profession have a very different career today than what they started with. So I understand the feeling that ‘this isn’t what I signed up for’. But today, we can do a better job of educating people about the profession and ensure good people come in that have reasonable expectations.

A great Youtube Saturday Night Live parody: – http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ybDKfGEw4aU :

At the end of the day, it is all relative. There are hundreds of thousands of people out there that would see what we do and what we make as ‘the dream’. Our International counterparts are making a fraction and working much more. Absolutely not where we want to go, but we have to understand what the competitive pressures and do the best we can in the area of building competence and finding the right people. Let’s work on increasing the competence, and then demanding higher wages because we are the best.[/QUOTE]

That almost reads like a parody of some kind.

K.C.

[QUOTE=Sweat-n-Grease;97215]C.TurnAndBank, either you are for real or you are fucking with us. Doesn’t matter to me which way it is. I enjoy your posts. You bet, my friend, things have to change, but how, and when? Our Nation has yet again turned its back on the US Merchant Marine. We are use to it. Your user name evokes aviation to me, again, doesn’t matter, both are similar mediums.
.[/QUOTE]

I respect the individuals that post on gcaptain. I thought long and hard before I posted this. The individuals that contribute, and blog on this forum care about the industry, otherwise you would not be here discussing it. I very much hope that this somehow reaches more than just the ‘regulars’. I really could not agree more that we are being marginalized. We have done our very best to support this industry. Getting the vessel from point A to point B in the safest manner possible, ensuring the mechanical infrastructure is top notch, helping the talented individuals move up the ladder, to help the ‘green cadet’, and to mentor the new Mate / Engineer. We are getting the tools to do our job taken away, yet we have even a higher degree of responsibility / liability.

One of the issues is that our voice is being sung by Unions, AWO, OMSA and the corporations. Each with their own varied interest, generally following the $$.

My statement is: Associations: Stop lobbying for reduced competence!! USCG: Stop allowing the politicians to direct you to reduce the standards! The mariner doesn’t want it and at the end of the day companies do not want it. It puts everyone at risk, including the Jones Act, which is the last piece of the puzzle.

[QUOTE=rshrew;97105]All I know is that I never wanted to go to an academy. When I finished HS I had been working around tugs my whole life and wanted to work up through the hawse. Had dinner with my old man my senior year and he told me don’t be a moron with all the new regulations and bullshit that is changing, get a degree and big license and skip all the BS.[/QUOTE]

Not to veer this conversation too far off course, but…

There are days I wish I had attended one of the academies here in the east.

By the age of 11 or 12, my dream and goal was to become a Chesapeake Bay pilot or a docking pilot here in Baltimore. A friend of my dad’s was a Maryland pilot and they began grooming me for that an early age. Even spent a summer on the old station boat “Maryland” down off the Virginia Capes. This I imagine, was very similar to a hazing process some might go through in College. Scrubbed pots & pans in the galley, shined brass, carried luggage for the pilots, cleaned staterooms, etc…

This I learned was to find out what a prospective apprentice was made of. Could he take being bossed around all day and not complain? Was he dedicated to the system?

Unfortunately, after a few years in the business decking on harbor, bay & coastwise tugs as well as sailing deep-sea, the rules changed. The days of the traditional apprenticeship were over and I slipped between the cracks. The State associations were moving away from the old system and now required a degree or unlimited Master’s ticket to be considered for apprenticeship.

This left me out in the cold with considerable license, sea time and a ton of experience.

Now, after 30+ years afloat, and more than 25 holding license, I see where the education aspect of this business has finally caught up to me. Regulations, paperwork and the big one, electronics. Although I consider myself a very good boat & ship handler, I often find myself struggling with some of the electronics aboard the modern tugs I now operate. Not to mention the never ending paperwork.

No, it’s not a pity party, as I have taken control and spent the dough to attend courses offered that bring me more up to date with today’s gadgets.

But, it is sometimes hard not to think about where I might be had I attended one of these academies.

.[QUOTE=capnfab;97234]But, it is sometimes hard not to think about where I might be had I attended one of these academies.[/QUOTE]

With any good luck you would be exactly where you are today, capnfab.
“Just what you want to be, you’ll be in the end” ~ Moody Blues

[QUOTE=“highseasmechanic;97097”]I took the initiative[/QUOTE]

That’s the difference no matter how you obtained your credentials or whatever you achieve in your life. When someone can take the initiative to learn their job they have achieved a higher education and respect for the field they represent.

MEBA went to recruit people at the maritime academy’s. Maersk fleet with MEBA pays very well. AMO not so much. There are still real seagoing jobs that are unlimited HP and Tonnage for mates and engineers that pay well. I heard “the negative waves of our industry” this bullshit in 1985. My buddy fled the maritime scene in 1987 cause the “sky was falling”. He working in a trash to energy plant. Picture Homer Simpson going to the “nuke” plant except you are burning shitty diapers every day. The most exciting job is the guy with the crane, (exactly like the stuffed toy crane for a quarter machine except bigger).

As for training, the only way it will be relevant is if the US actually cares about its merchant fleet. Our deep sea is mostly dead. The point of an unlimited mate is to stand watch on an unlimited vessel. 'Course we don’t have much of them any more so thus the huge spill over into vessels that only require 1600T. In the academy were taught as if we are going to be operating a Tanker, containership, Cruise Ship, Dry bulk, etc. I don’t blame them for it; we have to have the appropriate knowledge for them, since we’re being licensed for them.

But who comes to our Job Fairs to recruit us? Vane, Kirby, KSea, Hornbeck. You get the idea. MMP and AMO come too, along with MSC, offering unlimited tonnage jobs. And I know people who’ve been hired by Shell and Celebrity. But the point is the US deep sea fleet is barely on life-support.[/QUOTE]

I’m kinda sad these days, because I was a hard working Navy EM in the 80’s and got out of the Navy in 1992 as EM1 at the end of the Cold War, with a check for 30k in my hand because the President and the US saw no further need for my services. Big draw down kinda like now, but with more money. Then I ran into a nice gentleman who was a retired C/E who urged me to go merchant and I balked. He offered to mentor me, and I dug my heels. Wish I’d listened to him, but I was hard headed. Before I got out of the Navy, I had to attend a Transitional Assistance Program (TAP) class and nobody from the maritime unions or MSC came to speak to us, so I knew nothing other than what my friend (his wife took care of my horse) told me. I went on to use my GI bill to earn a bachelors degree (while working at shipyards) but I wonder where I’d be now if I’d have listened to my retired C/E friend. Then I went to work at a local shipyard for a long, long time.

My first real encounter with the merchant marine came about 6 years ago with my stint as a port engineer. I was there a couple years. I was good at the technical aspects of the job but I was gone more than some of the crew on the ships I managed and I began to wonder about the cost/benefit. I met a lot of great people, though, and that got me thinking again about what my old friend had advised. But I figured I was too old.

What really kicked me in the ass was when I came to my current company, marine tech services and chemicals, which I am trying to leave for a sailing job.

My boss’s boss was an upper level exec who was a USMMA graduate (did not sail on his license), a real pretentious prick, born in Texas but a wanna be New Yorker- and he decided to shit all over me one day because I rode a motorcycle to a quarterly business review meeting with a prominent government customer (MSC). I rode from Norfolk to New Jersey and took the Cape May- Lowes ferry as part of my route. I planned to attend a military funeral in Delaware on the way back, as I was taking part in Patriot Guard rides at that time.

He took my boss aside, and told him that a woman who rode a motorcycle was “sleazy” and that I gave the “customer” (MSC) a bad impression even though I was nicely attired in business wear when I sat down at the conference table. My clothes were top notch business wear and I’d had my hair done to the tune of $150 plus but this prick saw me arrive in Boonton NJ on the M/C, and that was it. I caught so much shit from this guy and it made me physically sick. PS- nobody from the MSC contingent gave a damn how I got there and the only one who raised a fuss was Mr. Kings Point.

Guess what I thought about USMMA grads for a long time after that. First impressions matter. Think on that if you are a USMMA grad and you get the itch to crap on someone you think is beneath you for some odd reason. What goes around comes around. I served my country on active duty for 13 years and my two sons are also veterans one of whom served in Iraq. All this guy owed for free college was an annual reserve stint, but he thought I was fair game to kick around because he had a hard on for women on motorcycles. Good thing I didn’t have a bunch of tattoos, he’d have needed cardiac resuscitation. He’s 15 years younger than me though, and runs marathons. In a fair fight I’d have a shot, though, because I am strong and I am a vicious bitch when you stick a knife in me.

My current philosophy is to keep conversation to a minimum and go about my business because the caste nazis are everywhere in this business, and there is no way to be rid of them. All I have is my skills and work ethic, and my self respect, which no pretentious ass can take from me. I love machinery and like good hard work and no bullshit, and if I end up your oiler or wiper you won’t be sorry.