[QUOTE=cmjeff;94289]The media says it was a 4knot ebb current that morning so speed over water was 7 knots? Is that still too fast for you c.capt?[/QUOTE]
Hey he hit the bridge didn’t he…STILL TOO FAST AND NO EXCUSES!
wait for the flood or have an escort tug to be a brake
[QUOTE=c.captain;94293]Hey he hit the bridge didn’t he…STILL TOO FAST AND NO EXCUSES!
wait for the flood or have an escort tug to be a brake[/QUOTE]
Sounds about right.
And here’s one for you joe:
q: At a gathering of Captains how can you tell if the guy you’re talking to is a pilot?
a: Don’t worry, he’ll tell you!
[QUOTE=cmjeff;94289]The media says it was a 4knot ebb current that morning so speed over water was 7 knots? Is that still too fast for you c.capt?[/QUOTE]
I don’t know man. It seems that if you collide or allide with something in limited visibility, that almost by definition your speed was excessive.
[QUOTE=“captrob;94307”]I don’t know man. It seems that if you collide or allide with something in limited visibility, that almost by definition your speed was excessive.[/QUOTE]
Yeah. It could be that any speed greater than zero was excessive. If the minimum speed necessary to maintain steerage was not slow enough to avoid hitting something he should have refused to sail.
[QUOTE=lm1883;94314]Why did the Master order a Pilot and proceed in the first place? What responsibility does he bear in all of this? Just curious as to what the general consensus is.[/QUOTE]
I used to sail Seattle to Dutch Harbor and back on a little coaster. The routine was to make one trip a month and the trip could be made in 20 to 25 days. We always had 5-10 days up our sleeve. The couple time I remember not sailing, once from Dutch because of weather no one even came to to the ship to see why we hadn’t left. When we decided to leave we threw off the lines and off we went, no questions asked. In fact one time we anchored in Petersburg to watch the Super Bowl game on TV. No one was ever the wiser.
The ships I work on today are at the other end of the spectrum. Now if I decide not to sail, the cell phone in my pocket will ring within 60 seconds and its “why have you caused a delay?” A delay involves the pilots, the tugs, the agent, the owner, the charterer, line handlers, the owner of the cargo, the longshoreman and all the ship’s behind you awaiting your berth and all the various parties in the ports ahead on your schedule.
In ports that have explicit limits on sail/no-sail decisions and the captain decides not to sail when below those limits (wind speed or visibility) then the captain had better have a good reason. It’s like using a get out of jail free card.You only get a couple per career.
In ports that don’t have explicit limits it much more difficult. A couple of examples are, in Shuaibah one pilot will not sail in more then 20 knots of wind and the next one will. On the other hand in Bremehaven, which is much tighter, they hook up a 4000 hp tug on each end and routinely move ships inside the locks, in 35 knots of wind. Unless you have experience in those ports you have to rely upon someones else for advice
Another point is it’s often not a safe / not-safe decision but a matter of degree. Is it safer to stay alongside and risk coming off the pier in the wind or is it better to sail, or to anchor and chance the anchor dragging? In an unfamiliar port the captain has to rely heavily on the pilots advice.
When I see people saying the captain can just refuse to sail I wonder which end of the spectrum they are on, a little Alaskan coaster or a container ship with a cargo value more then the GDP of some small countries.
K.C.
I don’t see much “not sailing” but when conditions warrant I see pilots/ships order a second/third tug, or wait until daylight-- that tugs often not used but it’s there and they can point towards that as having made a “safer” choice. No experience on large ships like that but on the barge side of things there is very little pressure these days it seems from my perspective. My point is that yes the unit may be able to handle the Wx but in the case of a problem, it’s going to be magnified exponentially.
I see things cancelled more when there is a narrow tidal window for a deep draft etc. It’s rarely one factor that causes a delay or cancellation. I’ve been stood behind and my decision considered final most of my career, but once again that’s not on a large high value vessel.
Alaska towing and smaller vessels are a special case. It is routine to delay sailing for weather or seek shelter and wait for weather, occasionally multiple times on a trip. It is expected that a vessel will stay inside all the way to Cape Spencer and go the long way around through Shelikof Strait on the way to Dutch Harbor.
On a winter trip from Seattle to LA, once you clear Cape Flattery, the same companies will go nuts if you seek shelter and wait for weather anywhere along the way (not that there are many opportunities to do so).
[QUOTE=z-drive;94398]. I’ve been stood behind and my decision considered final most of my career, …[/QUOTE]
It’s a matter of on-site expertise.
On a vessel that does not require a pilot:
On[B] a vessel that does require a pilot [/B]and the captain is not familiar with the port[B] only #1 is true[/B]. In the first case, without a pilot, if the captain is telling the company it is too risky to sail they are getting the information from the person who has the most expertise. is actually going to do the job and have no information which contradicts what they are being told.
With a pilot if the captain says it is too risky to sail but the pilot says otherwise, the company is getting contrary information from, presumably, the person who has the most expertise in the matter. In this case, the captain is in the difficult position of disagreeing with the local expert who has been hired to actually do the job. A captain in in an unfamiliar port faces a rather steep credibility problem.
The best bet for the captain is have a clear plan which he and the other bridge officers can monitor as the vessel un-berths and proceeds to sea. If the vessel does not appear to be following the plan the officers can ask the pilot for clarification .(speak clearly into the VDR mic)
In the case of the Cosco Busan, the ship was required by state law to take a pilot and the S.F. Bay pilot association assigned Cota, who, according to the paper, was “a brusque, unhealthy man with a hot temper, an alcohol problem, and a history of driving under the influence.”
Tough call for a captain who meets the pilot and a minute or two later is letting go the lines.
K.C.
The pilot is a hired local consultant…
I was recently in Piraeus Greece. I got pulled out of the berth stern first in 35 kts of wind with 40+ kt gust by a 6000 hp tug hooked up astern and a 4000 hp tug hooked up forward and a second 4000 hp tug to assist in turning around inside the breakwater. The pilot is speaking to the tugs via UHF - in Greek. I assume he was giving the tugs instructions but as many ships as they move there they may have been chatting about meeting later for brunch. I being dragged backwards, the tugs total roughly the same horsepower available as I do, I can neither speak nor understand Greek. How, in any practical sense, am I being advised by the pilot?
Pilots are not advisers in theory either:
From George Quick; Master / Pilot Relationship
“Confusing the issue on checks and balances in the relationship is the mistaken perception that the pilot is aboard in an advisory capacity. This is not true in actual practice in pilotage waters or in the law as applied in North America. The pilot “conducting” the ship gives all the directions concerning the ships movement and it is the master who may advise the pilot as to the capabilities of the ship or its equipment or crew.
and from the same paper:
no American legal decision has ever held that compulsory pilotage was advisory in nature,
K.C.
Vts IS authorized to direct. I’m guessing they are not required to do so. Imagine the legal implications… Here’s a Quote from SF VTS users manual…
(4) Direct: On rare occasions (and during heightened security conditions) VTS will direct movement or actions of a participant. Direction would be given in cases when the VTC observes obvious violations of regulations or an obvious and immediately dangerous condition of which the participant is not or does not seem to be aware. Directions will normally be in the form of a general objective such as staying out of a certain area or coming no closer than a certain distance from a vessel or facility.
Alpha/Bravo Racon was non-op that day. There’s no radar buoy on the S of A/B Span there is one @ S of delta tower. Definitely an interesting track line, perfect for A/B, then scoot over to D/E and overshoot it…
cheers