Stena Immaculate on fire off UK

Professional Mariner Forum
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You surely have a point here. I have never allowed to use this mode in heavy traffic earning a title " the old fool" . But quite often heard the argument that " the previous master" did not object.

Had my reasons but explaining them will be too long and rather off-topic. Surely nobody is changing waypoints for frequently used route. May be cross track error/limit was adjusted - may be but I am not sure.

May be ECDIS Guru @Meme.Lord can have some input here and clarify some details. Have used some types in the past but each type user manual is 750-800 pages . One need to spend long time studying it to get all the fancy toys and use them in safe manner.

ccccc

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I have actually never sailed on a vessel with any sort of track mode, so I can not speak authoritatively on that. But it’s worth noting, I’ve seen lot of screenshots of the vessel’s track over the past x number of months, but I’ve never seen any scale for how spread the tracks actually are. I generally set ocean legs of a route with 1-2NM XTD, its fairly easy to stay between those lines with just a standard autopilot holding a heading.

I’m not invested enough to pay for the data, but it wouldn’t be too hard to reverse engineer and estimate what their XTD was set at. But on the other hand, all I have going on this week is being an unemployed nerd if someone who pays for Marine Traffic, and knows how to export the Solong’s Track over the past couple months to something I can plug into Google Earth.

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I have never used the track mode on any other vessel other than while undertaking seismic surveying . The autopilot used was a Robertson, an autopilot widely used in the offshore oil support vessels and it has been around for a number of years. Most of the vessels I sailed in had no provision to use the track mode that on the Robertson is called the Nav mode.
The same computer controlling all aspects of the survey also controls the autopilot maintaining an XTE within a couple of metres. When reversing course the computer controls a rate of turn of 3 degrees per minute taking an hour at normal speed of about 4 knots. The ship’s track is very carefully monitored by a number of people.

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I agree with you that there does seem to be a disproportionate number of posts on this thread about the possible fault of the Stena. Contrast with this thread for example: Another Tanker Collision…

I also agree that the scenarios you mentioned are highly implausible.

That said I think there are more plausible but still unlikely scenarios, for example the Stena may have expecting a pilot soon and was ready to maneuver. I think we can agree that’s possible but unlikely.

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My 2p’s worth so far

Stena was carrying Jet A1 which is kerosene, the stuff they put into your average boing ( deliberate spelling error which refers to a very old joke about Boeing aircraft , Boeing Boeing Boing ) . kero is used as it’s flash point is significantly higher than gasoline (avgas ) which you would put in your average Cessna spam can.

Track mode heading mode and course mode arguments are irrelevant in this case.

With what I said earlier in this thread about the noise levels on feeder container ships even if the Stena or anyone else did try to warn the Salong by VHF of the impending crash ( collision, Allision , also irrelevant) would this warning have been heard?

Also earlier I referred to the fatigue on these feeder ships, was anyone on the bridge awake to hear a warning called on VHF?

So my take

Poor bugger on the bridge was fast asleep .

Have a good weekend

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Must admit the old Boeing joke did not occur to me until my spell checker corrected my Boeing post :winking_face_with_tongue:

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JP-4 avtag

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Nowadays, it is becoming increasingly common to encounter navigation systems offering such capabilities. Every modern bridge is equipped with ECDIS or at least ECS, and the cost of an autopilot capable of utilizing these features is negligible compared to the possibilities it offers.

I am not particularly familiar with Robertson systems, but I have worked with equipment branded as Anschutz, Simrad, and Sperry Marine, which are likely similar, perhaps even the same, though I am not well-versed in marketing nuances. In simple terms, the NAV function you are referring to is essentially what we now call Track Mode. Of course, the devil is in the details. Essentially, the NAV function, both past and present, hands over autopilot control from a heading sensor to an external navigation device. In the past, this was typically a basic Loran or GPS receiver, whereas today, it is ECDIS or ECS. And, of course, this is closely tied to the whole process of transmitting NMEA-coded signals, such as the APB sentence but I have to admit, that’s beyond my expertise.

Today, this process is managed via ECDIS/ECS and, of course, an operator who must initially program the vessel’s maneuvering parameters. Subsequently, depending on operational needs, the appropriate limit values characteristic of the given voyage are adjusted.

When all relevant autopilot alarms are properly configured, a single OOW is sufficient to oversee its operation. Assuming, of course, that he/she are responsible, reasonable, and adequately trained.

The limitations of using Track Mode in high-traffic areas certainly do not stem from the inconvenience of monitoring the system’s operation.

As for Course Mode, that one is simple, think of it as Track Mode, but with only one waypoint placed at ‘the end of the world’ but call it Course Mode, not Track Mode, because you’re following a defined course.

You are absolutely right, and this has already been stated multiple times in this thread. However, that doesn’t mean one can use the terminology without understanding its meaning.

I completely agree, there’s no way to have a normal conversation on those feeder container ships, let alone listen to music. However, I do wonder how they manage to communicate with the pilot station or VTS.

Absolutely, who cares about what those white-collar lawyers have to say?

Of course not, just as they probably don’t hear any other communications from shore stations either.

Well, that explains everything. Case closed, we can all go to bed now.

By the way, what exactly was significance in the physical properties of the tanker cargo to this incident? Did I somehow miss the crucial connection between Jet A1 Kerosene, JP-4 Avtag, and ordinary gasoline (avgas)?

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Are You sure?. Can You pls elaborate. I do admire the economy of your wording and use of two letter words. Can not wait for your surely meaningful single letter barrage.

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Can you? Why would a 3 knot current that you don’t know if it exists or not affect a ship at anchor that had been at anchor for hours?

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I see that deflecting is your winning combo.

Well, i have inserted some material indicating the currents in the area exist and may be quite strong. It is also confirmed in NP 54 North Sea (West) Pilot or if this pub is not available in your neck of the woods then may by try :
Pub 192 SAILING DIRECTIONS (ENROUTE) NORTH SEA.

Having established that ( the currents -strong one do exist there) giving hypothetical value of 3 is not outrageous. If You do not like uneven number lets say 2 kts.You still do not like it? So what is your educated guess??

Unfortunately I do not have access to NP 251 so I can not be very precise in this regard so I am speculating with likely figures. Whats wrong about it. ?

Listen. I love your poking jabs. And I mean it. However i have an impression You have a concentration issue. I am sorry but this is my impression.

I think I have explained clearly what I meant in my # 204 & #221 . English is not my 1st lingo so may be there is some misunderstanding. May be it would be a good idea to ask what I mean saying this or that.

Now. Your user card says You are boasting possesion of Master Unlimited Oceans licence, which is surely much more sophisticated and better then having STCW Master > 3000 Grt ,what is the bare minimum.

I am 100 % sure that in USA the standards of training and performance are the highest in the world regarding navigation despite the fact that your Navy cowboys can not make it from A to B without being rammed by some lazy , slow moving merchant cow posing as a ship and manned by 3rd world or MEP’s stupid and uneducated crew, whom some here so despise. But I blame it on the " system" - it explains all.

However pls note that your remark :

is quite original let alone revolutionary. I may be wrong of course but it may affect a vessel in many ways in 2 hrs or 72 hrs .

I do not want to elaborate as surely I am not considered here as authority but look at what @float has to say about it :

Wow .That is a revelation . SOG due to gps dither!!!.Alongside too!!!.
That means they have no rest at all , they are always moving at anchor, alongside due to GPS peculiarity. If so lets apply COLREGS while alongside- why not??.
So tell me what is the benchmark for stationary.? Or was it an allision or collision? If something is moving continuously it can not be considered as stationary . Can it not??

Have You ever been on the ship at anchor that had SOG fluctuating around zero but STW 1<V<7 kts due to currents. I was. And surprise, surprise that had a heading too!!!transmitted to where??? To Ais.
Have You never examined the past track of your ship at anchor within the ECDIS circle to conclude she was doing a lot of movements due to current and wind ??

You also assume things . What makes You think I was thinking abt current affecting the ship at anchor for hrs?? Is it the only thing You could think about??? Nothing else Dear Master Mariner Unlimited Oceans???

So how about stopping playing g…fy?? & getting serious??? otherwise please be so kind and stop knocking at my doors reminding me of your existance here. It is so boring and as You have noticed already two letters grunts and farts are not my strongest points.

In the thread You have been so kind to mention, the conversation was focused rather on AIS and spoofing allegedly contributing to described there accident similar to this one. And the conversation is not finished yet .

Also the vessel & crew of Ceres I were immediately labeled as bad dudes, dark fleet and what not,by Splash247, Maritime Executive and other " dark fleet haters" despite fighting the fire , wheras in the case discussed here the t’boned victims were heiled as heroes.
As far as I am concerned anyone sailing/working on a boat filled with jet fuel is a hero . These boats always conjured up in my mind the immage of me being converted to KFC popular dish after collision.

More. In case of Ceres I the said media were silent about the nationality and name of the master of the ramming vessel, while here they were very quick to find the name of the delinquent master but unable to find basis crew list how many OOWs Solong had . May be 3 or may be 2. And with 2 OOWs how is that possible that UK authorities ( PSC) or other failed to notice that 12x7= 84 and it does not fit neither MLC working/rest hrs regime nor STCW. And 84 is a conservative number as it accounts only for 6on/6 off watch. @244 has described it in detail but He did not mention all .

I also can not understand this obsession that somebody is looking for Stena faults. I have downloded here enough case material indicating that it is irrelevant what I , You and others think or suspect . What is relevant is what the white wigged guys will think and ask abt it and what independent investigators/ experts will find during investigation.
Convincing others then doing nothing at all because in our opinion it will not change anything is preposterous. We still do not know what Stena crew did prior impact. We are about to find out .

Excellent You have reminded me about the unfinished thread.

According to alias Sirk and alias 244 Stena v/s Solong case has no relevance to track mode or other mode or any mode.

Acc to alias 244 the master was sleeping. If this is the case then may be OOW on Stena was sleeping too. ??

Or may be and I am spitballing here both were not sleeping but both were fooled by AIS which indicated CPA > 0 and using EBL was for both an alien intelectual concept or they failed to consult Chat Gpt on the issue.

I suspect @retdmarineengineer will call this idea of mine OUTRAGEOUS!!!.
But mind You my Friend @retdmarineengineer :wink: before I spelled AIS as suspect here i have prepared such an amount of pdfs on this particular issue that I will burry You alive with it when You mention "outrageous " :wink: again

xxxxx

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Ye Gods.

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Yes

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Hogsnort: Very good your estimate of the 15 - 20 minutes on the “Stena Immaculate” to get ready for an emergency anchor-up. And then imagine if at the last minute the oncoming vessel veers slightly, all is clear, and everyone goes back to “as you were”. Would the OOW get any praise? What if someone on the “Stena Immaculate” stubs their toe ? No biggie. But one of the crew sprains an arm or breaks a leg rushing down the stairs. Would there still be praise for the alert OOW? There is no justification for the Tanker running on the same track as in the olden days of routine liner service, where you left the usual route penciled in.

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I have sailed with all the brands navigational equipment you mention, Simrad has now amalgamated with Robertson. Robertson seemed to be the brand of choice in the offshore oil industry as was Sailor for the radio equipment.
The autopilot when steering in the Track (nav) mode using ECDIS it uses an APB sentence where the APB sentence has bearing waypoint - waypoint and XTE calculated as tangents to radius arc., and distance to radius.
The GPS position obtained by a ship carrying out seismic survey is of a different order of accuracy than that in general use. Three different correction systems are used and when commencing a survey in a new area the ship is secured alongside and a surveying company using theodolites and shore based datum’s fix the receiving antenna . Then in the middle of storing and other essential tasks we turn the ship around and repeat the procedure. The accuracy of course keeping is commensurate with the accuracy of the position and what would be unnoticed in normal navigation is monitored with more attention.
We just had our boat show here with lots that you could throw a lazy 3 million or so at, the helicopter was extra, all the electronics were plug and play, and a 22 foot fizz boat would do waypoint navigation with the autopilot.

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Good evening Dr.Bugge.
You are good in research . Any chance of finding who was the time charterer of Solong.
Here is a capture from Ernst Russ AG main website:

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It appears their main source of income was time chartering their owned/maneged vessels.

I have been dealing with this type of managements all my life and the idea their 2005 built vessel was fitted with the latest technology and from the top shelve is simply crazy.
They built cheapest , fit the minimum required almost always of low quality and hope for the best by putting their low quality cheap shit on the time charter market.
The division of costs is acc to time C.P. : fuel , cgo ops , port costs , pilots ,agents , tugs are for charterers account . Masters to obey client orders ast to employment and perform voyages as per charterers orders. Onwers always reponsible for navigation , while lub oils, mantenance of the ship and keeping it in good technical condition/seaworthy plus crew and provisions are on owners/managers nickel.
And such blokes are champions in " SPAREN/saving ’ techniques applying enormous pressure on ships management team to minimise costs. It applies to food, spare parts and consumables. With such dudes one can be 100% sure they apply pressure to cheat on work/rest hrs records.
You try to give them nonconformity or complain , theiy will wait patiently for your short term shit contract to expire and they will not re-employ you. Simple formula to learn obedience and keep your mouth shut up.

This is their vessels description : SetCard Solong.pdf

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added: 250325
Burnt-Out Containership Solong to be Towed into UK Port

They know so much already but still can not find out how many OOWs Solong had o/b

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From the Maritime Ex article:

However, the master of the Solong remains in a UK jail having been arrested on a count of gross negligent manslaughter. It came out in the initial court hearing that he had been on the bridge of the containership standing watch when it hit the tanker.

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Standing ??? I am not sure

Hope he did not get ideas from comments # 13 & # 15 contained in here:

If so , then I urgently need asylum in Mongolia or N.Korea

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@Hogsnort whaddya know, it wasn’t a 3rd mate. Love the assumption of blame tho

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Maybe history HAS repeated itself??
We will only know when the accident report is published.

Source: https://www.kystens.no/nyheter/var-innestengt-pa-do-da-baten-gikk-pa-grunn/2-1-1793472

PS> Both the crew and the fishing boat escaped the incident unharmed.