Short sea shipping in the US?

That trend is starting already.

Lazaro Cardenas is expanding rapidly as is Prince Rupert The winners wiil be fans of the Sage of Omaha.

No I DO NOT miss the point. Like I said; while China and Europe is modernizing and encouraging Short sea and River Shipping, USA is debating and resisting development.

The Stevedore/Longshoremen scenario is VERY familiar from the UK in the 1960ā€™s and Australia in the 1970ā€™s, which ā€œkilledā€ ports and coastal shipping in those two countries.

I donā€™t sit in judgment of, or have any agenda here, other than to try to inform on the development in the rest of the world. So donā€™t shoot the messenger.

Truckers should be making $140,000 a year.

I think you are many things but not that you are naive so it is hard to take the above seriously when you make this statement:

Why even bring up the US when posting links about China and the EU? Of course you have clearly made a judgement and you do have and agenda. Come on donā€™t deny it. Other wise you would have just said ā€œhere is some recent news about short sea shippingā€. But no you had to go for the dig.

There is nothing to debate or resist in the US. When and if the economics (based on regulatory environment, trucking industry evolution, highway deterioration) change - then equipment will be brought to bear and serve the need. It is not an industry that will spontaneously come about and grow just because it exists and works in other nations with other circumstances, geography, financial systems, regulatory regimes in place.

Or are you proposing a heavy hand of government intervention to overcome the market forces in play?

Come on, you are just a shit stirrer (excuse my french, fecal stimulator) and I bet you know it. Donā€™t deny it. Embrace it, thatā€™s the first step to recovery.

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I think we ought to take care of paying the enough mariners first.

No Iā€™m not naive enough to think that my posting links to what is going on in China and/or Europe is going to change anything in the US. I do not SIT IN JUDGEMENT of anything, but I most certainly have an opinion about many thing, incl. that Short sea/River Shipping would be right for USA.

Just look at it geographically. You have long coastlines, navigable rivers, canals and Inshore waterways, not to mention far flung territories away from CONUS. All lends itself to a flourishing Short sea/River trade, except that your regulatory environment, the power of the ruling class and certain Unions, holds it back.

Not a heavy hand, but a professional maritime administration, politicians that looks beyond petty political differences, who give most generously towards their next re-election and an Administration that is not beholden to Big Business and the Ultra-rich.

If you feel offended that I, as a foreigner with no direct interest in the matter, bring up the fact that others are doing things differently, I can only say sorry.
No, not because of what I have said, but because the rich and powerful of the ruling class has been able convince even the working stiffs that anything that make THEM richer is good for you.

If you think it is good for the general population that CEOs earns >300 x the average wage and speculators on Wall Street gets rich from shifting monies between accounts in milliseconds, contributing nothing to society, is the right thing for you, you have my sympathy.

Cargo is going to take the route with the cheapest labor. Can either knock the sea route down to shit wages or raise the land route to a decent level.

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There are more things than wages that govern overall cost of transport. Efficiency is an obvious factor, as well as convenience.

In places like Europe and China, environmental concerns are now playing a major role, not only economics in itā€™s rawest sense. In the long run clean but efficient transport will probably prove to be better economically as well.

Striving to the lowest common denominator is a sure way to ruin a society. History has told that story for thousands of years. Eventually the majority get sick of making a very small minority rich and being told they are lucky to have a job. That plus military overreach/colonization has ruined every civilization that went down that path. Romans, British Empire, Soviet Union etc.

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Yes, thatā€™s obvious. Cargo taking the path of low wages is hyperbole.

You mustā€™ve graduated at the top of your class.

Nice try old chap. However, that is not what I was suggesting you were being naive about. No - you seem to claiming to be naive regarding the meaning of your posts trying to adopt a ā€œwho meā€ attitude when the s#$@ starts moving after you stir it. What you wrote in that first post was by very definition a judgement. You can have all the opinions you want. Make all the statements you want but you canā€™t then claim you ā€œdonā€™t sit in judgement or have an agendaā€. Pish posh!

Not feeling offended by you calling yourself a foreigner.
Not offended that you have an opinion about short sea shipping in the US.

Iā€™m not aware of any offense but perhaps disappointment in that in this specific case you exhibited intellectually dishonest approach to this posting of links AND THEN cannot admit it.

Here you return to the thread topic but that has nothing to do with my post about your s#@$ stirring does it? You mention a few relevant factors, ignore many more, exhibit ignorance of the navigable river and interstate highway system of the US. Nor do you consider the fall line, the size and make up of the watersheds and dredging and many other items others have brought up in this and other threads. Thereā€™s more to it than looking at the pretty blue lines on a map or chart. Then you simply conclude but for a lack of will power the US is deliberately holding down short sea shipping on a larger scale than exists already. Hereā€™s the short story on short sea shipping in the US. There is exactly as much as is demanded and can be delivered profitably.

And now you seem bent on making things worse.

My goodness what does any of that have to do with you stirring s$#@ or short sea shipping. Itā€™s just more s$#@ stirring. Please stop.

Start a new thread for ā€œwhat I think is wrong with the USā€. Youā€™ll have no end of posts Iā€™m sure. You can keep your sympathy.

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How did you know???

Because of my superior intellect. I was educated at the finest institution in Norway. I try and exercise my mind by doing calculus in my head while cross country skiing. I refuse to work on any non-Norwegian vessels, I find them to be substandard in every respect. I look upon Americans with great disdain, especially those from the Gulf coast. I go on internet forums and attempt to educate others about the utopia that is Norway.

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Good for you. I hope you succeed on that education bit. Itā€™s not easy, I can assure you.

You should try to work on some non-Norwegian vessels, it can be quite educational and an eye opener.
I can recommend mud boats as especially ā€œentertainingā€. (If you donā€™t mind spittle cups standing everywhere)

For myself, I have been so unfortunate not to have worked on Norwegian vessels since 1970, but I try to stay updated on the development as much as I can.

Working in an international setting can also be good for you. You get to experience other ways of doing things and other folkā€™s point of view.

I already told you, my education was completed at the finest institutions in Norway. I have no need for further ā€œeducational experiences.ā€

Absolutely disgusting. Donā€™t they know that snus is superior to chewing tobacco in every way?

They are decades beyond NASA at this point.

Why? I already know they are doing it wrong, and that their beliefs are backwards and foolish.

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Come now. You did have some more meaningful comment than your last, about ā€œsh*t stirringā€, in your post #109. But since you brought it up, I do appear to have stirred something here.

Just in case you missed it, both China and Europe have long coast lines, navigable rivers and canal, as well as an extensive road network, not to mention high speed rail, especially in China.
The size of the coastal and inland fleets have also been brought up earlier.

The watershed is sizable in both areas, with dredging and maintenance of locks and bridges an important part of keeping them navigable, regardless of which country we are talking about.

Who and what is stopping the US from developing a viable Short sea/River transport system can be debated, but old habits and refusal to develop new ways may be one of them. It is a pity that this extend to the people who would have had the most immediate advantage of such a development is a bit of a surprise to me and many others.(mostly foreigners??)

The facts are that is it not currently cost effective, due to many factors including port taxes and longshoremensā€™ fees. I expect that as environmental issues get pushed to the forefront someone in shipping will team up with environmental groups to rally their voters to push for reform such that SSS becomes an economical method.

Yes I agree, it is not viable without a structural, regulatory and administrative change, which is what I have been saying all along.
As long as everybody sit back and say; ā€œthis canā€™t be done and nothing will changeā€, then not will change.
The environmental thing will become a factor, but obviously not with this Administration, (at least not in a positive way) but somewhere down the line??

The power of a few US Unions to do the same harm as the Unions in UK and Australia did in the 1960ā€™s and 70ā€™s, while the Unions are otherwise relatively weak, or not functioning for the better of their members, are another thing that amazes us foreigners. (Why is there no Margaret Thatcher like figure when needed??)

Back in the 1960ā€™s Fred Olsen Lines introduced palletized cargo and side ports for their fruit carriers from the Canary Isles to London Docks, but the Dockers demanded a full gang of 12 men to watch non-unionized forklift drivers doing the work. The history goes that Fred Olsen himself went in to negotiate with the Dockers directly, which resulted in the best deal (for both side) in the London Docks: https://vads.ac.uk/diad/article.php?title=257&article=d.257.24

The story goes that the Union Rep. shall have stated; ā€œDamn, if you werenā€™t a Shipowner we would have voted for you as the Union bossā€.

Maybe not a feasible scenario for the near future, but you can always hope for better times.

Hoping for the ILA or ILWU to give an inch on their contracts would be VERY wishful thinking. They are the last unions with teeth left in the U.S. You could send all the shipowners in the world (even the benevolent Norwegian ones) and they probably wouldnā€™t even show up to the meeting. Iā€™m not saying I agree with it, or the fact that the guy carrying the water jugs down to the dock drives a nicer car than me, but I about rolled off my couch laughing.

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