Seeking clarification on requirements for AB-sail

Maritime Topics Maritime Training & Licensing
1

Hello to the forum,

This is kind of a “re-hello,” as I signed up late in 2009 as I was beginning to figure out my path in the Mariner’s world (beginning with upgrading my license).

Just then I was sidetracked by a former employer asking me to come back for a very temporary assignment of a month or two (in the boating world, but land-based). I accepted and… it lasted for over a year. Turned out to be a bit more of a sidetrack than I thought, but it was a nice setup, so I was not disappointed.

Now, however, I’m back on track and in the midst of a license upgrade. I took the classes for my AB, plus Lifeboatman and Basic Safety Training. All went well and I sent my application in to the NMC.

In addition to other things, I asked for AB-sail because I thought I qualified.

A few days ago I got a voice-mail message from the NMC. The fellow said that he had approved my application, but that someone higher up had kicked it back, saying I did not qualify for the AB-Sail. The person leaving the message did not sound extremely sure, but said that it was supposed to be for Sail Training Vessels and maybe Research Vessels and my time was not on those, so…

He said that I could write a letter to the NMC asking them to remove the AB-Sail from my application, and then they could get the rest done and sent to me.

Now, I don’t want the AB-Sail if I don’t deserve it, but it sounded a little vague (he also said “…and since your time was on Commercial sailing vessels…,” and my time was not on commercial sailing vessels, so that also makes me want to check into it a bit more.

So, this sent me to the Internet for some searching. In addition to general Googling, I also searched here and at the NMC/CG specifically. I did not find much. The only really concrete thing I found was this in the requirements area for AB-Sail:

“180 days of service on sailing school or equivalent vessels”

Okay, I’m fine on the 180 days, as I have well over 360 days under sail.

I know I did not sail on a sailing school vessel.

But what I don’t know - and can’t find anywhere - is what is an [I]equivalent [/I]vessel? And what is the part that should be equivalent? The part where you are under sail (vs. engine)? The part that it is a school? (The latter does not seem right if it could be a research vessel as the NMC person said.) Equivalent to some size?

Again, I’m not looking to get something I don’t deserve; but on the other hand, I don’t want to “give it away” if I don’t need to. I just want to understand more about what they are looking for, so I can either make a case that I have that, or send in a letter requesting they drop that from my application.

I looked in the CFR but did not see what I am looking for; however I am sure I could have missed it, as there is a lot to that!

Thanks to all for any help, and I hope to be a more active member of the forum now :slight_smile:

2

I have no idea, but they gave me AB Sail years ago when I added the Auxiliary Sail endorsement to my Master’s license. I read somewhere recently that the AB Sail endorsement is going away.

3

[QUOTE=dougpine;45904]I have no idea, but they gave me AB Sail years ago when I added the Auxiliary Sail endorsement to my Master’s license. I read somewhere recently that the AB Sail endorsement is going away.[/QUOTE]

Interesting. I do already have the Auxiliary Sail endorsement on my Master’s License (from before this go-round). The requirements for that seemed more clear (and I didn’t have any problem getting it).

Hmm.

4

http://www.uscg.mil/nmc/faq/merchant_mariners_credentials.asp

SERVICE REQUIREMENTS:

ABLE SEAMAN- Unlimited Three years (1080 days) service on deck on vessels operating on the oceans or the Great Lakes.
ABLE SEAMAN- Limited Eighteen months (540 days) service on deck in vessels of 100 Gross Register Tons (Domestic Tonnage) or over in a service not exclusively confined to rivers and smaller inland lakes of the U.S.
ABLE SEAMAN- Special Twelve months (360 days) service on deck on vessels operating on the oceans or navigable waters of the U.S. including the Great Lakes.
ABLE SEAMAN- Mobile Offshore Unit (MOU) Twelve months (360 days) service on deck in vessels of at least 65 feet in length operating on the oceans or navigable waters of the U.S.
ABLE SEAMAN- Offshore Supply Vessel (OSV) Six months (180 days) service on deck on vessels operating on the oceans or navigable waters of the U.S. including the Great Lakes.
ABLE SEAMAN- Fishing Industry (FISH IND) Six months (180 days) service on deck on vessels operating on the oceans or navigable waters of the U.S. including the Great Lakes.
ABLE SEAMAN-Sail Six months (180 days) service on deck on sailing school vessels operating on the oceans or navigable waters of the U.S. including the Great Lakes.
LIFEBOATMAN One year (360 days) service on deck, OR two years (720 days) in the other departments of vessels, operating on the navigable waters of the U.S.
LIFEBOATMAN - Mobile Offshore Unit (MOU) One year (360 days) service on deck in vessels of 15 Gross Register Tons (Domestic Tonnage) operating on the navigable waters of the U.S.
Note: Service other than on deck is given half credit (e.g., 1 day credit for every 2 days served) and an approved training program may substitute for all except 30 days of the service requirement.

5

I submitted for a sail endorsement with 2 yrs sea time on a uscg documented 12 ton recreational sailing vessel. I received an endorsement as AB - SAIL TRAINING VESSEL after passing a simple exam. When I questioned my evaluator (back when they were at the REC) I was told that the only sail endorsement available for an AB was the sail training vessel endorsement.

6

Mr. 100-ton,

Okay, now that definition does not mention “equivalent,” whereas the one I found does. I will have to look up where I found it, but I think it was on the AB checklist on the NMC site.

On the other hand, that does not mention research vessels either, which the NMC evaluator said would qualify (not that I have time on research vessels, but he mentioned it as an example of equivalent).

Azimuth,

From what you are saying, I would qualify, which is what I was originally led to believe. This makes me wonder what is my logical next move. I hate to keep holding up my AB, but… I don’t want to not get the AB-Sail if people with service like mine have got it. I used to have a contact at the Baltimore REC, but he is no longer there, and when I brought in my paperwork for this upgrade, there was no one there who was able to answer any questions.

CD

7

Just curious if there are vessels that even require AB Sail anymore?

8

[QUOTE=dougpine;45947]Just curious if there are vessels that even require AB Sail anymore?[/QUOTE]

I suppose there may not be too many, but when I was looking around this summer (I was already working, but was just looking), I saw a couple of positions on “Semester at Sea” type vessels that were specifying AB-Sail. I’m hoping to do something more commercial, but you never know. So… I hate to give it away if I don’t have to.

I do have a bit more information now. I just got a call back from someone I had called last week at the school I went to, and she confirmed (I was not at my desk) that the definition I have was on the NMC checklist, and that it also referenced a source, which was the Maritime Safety Manual, Chapter 16, page 16-4.

That definition did say something like (will be looking it up shortly!) “180 days served on deck of a sailing school vessel, research vessel, or equivalent”… I think it also said something about “under sail” or “primarily sail powered” — I’ll have to check. (I was outside when she called and now I’m on a machine that does not like to open .pdf files.)

She agreed that the “equivalent” was a bit vague as it stood, and that it was not entirely clear what one was supposed to be equivalent to. There was some hint that what they were looking for was time spent under sail (perhaps as opposed to motoring around in a sailboat). If so, I should be good.

She suggested that I call the NMC and try to speak to my evaluator. I was planning to do that, but I wanted to get as much information in hand as possible prior to the call. It looks like this may be as much specific info as I can muster.

Thanks,

CD

9

You can download the MSM here.

10

[QUOTE=dougpine;45951]You can download the MSM here.[/QUOTE]

Thanks :slight_smile: Right now I’m on an ancient (in computer terms; i.e. 10 years old ;)) computer that does not like to download .pdf files, but I’ll be on a different machine later and will have a look for myself, and then probably call the NMC back tomorrow.

I’ll report back and let you all know what happens.

(Of course if anyone else here has an AB-Sail who does not specifically have sea time on a sail-training vessel, by all means feel free to pipe in. I don’t mean to imply “case closed” yet!)

CD

11

Get to know the MSM inside and out. That’s what the evaluators at NMC use to make their decisions. Fight them on their own turf!

12

Doug, scholarships and windjammer are about the only ones I’m aware of. They may not require it but it might give someone a leg up if the competition is tight. I also talked to the master of a dutch flagged sail powered freighter. He offered me a position. All crew (with the exception of the master) are non paying and you had to pay your own transportation as well as donate to the mess fund.

13

By the way, here is the applicable text from the MSM:

[I]Able Seaman-Sail
An individual may be rated as Able Seaman-Sail if the individual has at least 6 months service on deck on sailing school vessels, oceanographic research vessels powered primarily by sail, or equivalent sailing vessels operating on the oceans or navigable waters of the Unites States (including the Great Lakes). The endorsement permits the holder to serve as AB only on sailing school vessels.

[/I]So, it seems as thought the “equivalent” could potentially be interpreted in different ways. If the part about “research vessels powered primarily by sail” were not there, I would think that would support the argument that the qualifying time should be on a sailing school vessel. BUT, the part about “research vessels powered primarily by sail” is there, which tends to make me think the equivalent could/should be time spent under sail vs. under power. i.e. that it is the experience under sail that they are emphasizing.

The previous poster who received an AB-Sail seems to have been evaluated with the “under sail” part being the equivalency; whereas the evaluator who looked at my time seems to have used the “sailing school or research vessel” part. This would seem logical to me except for the “under sail” part, and that a research vessel is not really a school in the sense of a sailing school vessel (meaning the education part is not the equivalency).

Since the “regular” AB seems much more useful (AB-Special in my case), and they have approved that, I won’t be devastated if I don’t get the AB-Sail, but… why not have it if it’s deserved? And, I do have a friend who works on sailing school vessel and seems to enjoy it, so it could be a nice option.

I shall call the NMC and talk it over with them now that I have the verbiage in hand. I’ll let you all know how I make out.

CD

14

[QUOTE=C. Dennis;45948] … and that it also referenced a source, which was the Maritime Safety Manual, Chapter 16, page 16-4…[/QUOTE]

The higher source for this is 46 U.S. Code 7311

15

Following this thread with interest.

So If Mr Cavo’s post is correct, then the accompanying cite shows how this is applied. US Code 7312 If I am reading this right, then an “A.B. unlimited” ticket is good on ANY vessel (sailing or not,) But an A.B. Sail is only good on a sail training vessel. Is this correct? If so, since the OP has a 100 ton license, wouldn’t that qualify them for the A.B. (provided the sea time is there) Unlimited, which would supersede a A.B. Sail?

I believe an A.B. Sail endorsement is inferior to an A.B. Unlimited. Any Navics or info on that? Or does a Sailing vessel COI state manning of an A.B. Sail? An A.B. Sail only requires 6 months seatime. That does not even near the year required for an A.B. special!

16

One must next find the definition of “sailing school vessel”, and then acquaint themselves with how NMC interprets the word “equivalent”. Case in point: has anyone ever done battle with a REC or NMC evaluator over the phrase “equivalent supervisory position”? I have. What you learn is that many of the ratings and endorsement were created to accommodate a special circumstance. For example, the Master AGT Inland (w/o the Great Lakes wording) is for all practical purposes a license to drive a Washington State or Staten Island ferry.

I would assume that AB unlimited would trump any other rating, but since they gave me both I’m not so sure.

17

[QUOTE=cappy208;46001]Following this thread with interest.

So If Mr Cavo’s post is correct, then the accompanying cite shows how this is applied. US Code 7312 If I am reading this right, then an “A.B. unlimited” ticket is good on ANY vessel (sailing or not,) But an A.B. Sail is only good on a sail training vessel. Is this correct? If so, since the OP has a 100 ton license, wouldn’t that qualify them for the A.B. (provided the sea time is there) Unlimited, which would supersede a A.B. Sail?

I believe an A.B. Sail endorsement is inferior to an A.B. Unlimited. Any Navics or info on that? Or does a Sailing vessel COI state manning of an A.B. Sail? An A.B. Sail only requires 6 months seatime. That does not even near the year required for an A.B. special![/QUOTE]

LOOK UP policy letter 13-02 july 17 2002,I [U][I][B]believe[/B][/I][/U] that it says if you hold a 100-ton master you can also get the UNLIMITED rating for AB,

18

Policy letter 13-02 is no longer in effect. In fact 46 CFR 12.02-11(a)(1) says definitely no. “An MMC with a deck officer endorsement will authorize the holder to serve in any rating capacity in the deck department, except able seaman. If a deck officer qualifies as able seaman, the MMC will be endorsed with the appropriate able seaman and lifeboatman endorsement. STCW endorsements as RFPNW and PSC will also be entered upon qualification”.

19

This forum is really amazing! Wow :slight_smile:

I have not contacted the NMC yet, but to recap/respond to some of the posts since I last posted:

  1. I have ~800 days of sea time, so not enough for AB-Unlimited (which is 1xxx).
  2. I have (from before) a 50-ton Master, near coastal, with sail, plus OS.

So on the new app, which is at the NMC now, I had asked for AB-Special (Lifeboatman/BST), 100-ton mate, and AB-Sail.

  1. I got a letter saying the 100-ton mate was rejected. I did not do as much research on that as maybe I should have, and (maybe too easily but I wanted to get the AB coming) I already wrote to them to say they could remove it from my application. I had asked for this on the basis of a gentleman at the REC saying I should have got it at the same time as my 50-ton Master (as if one could always qualify for the “next lower” mate raging - not sure now if that is true). At that point in time my original Master app was at the NMC and I asked if I could add the mate and they said no, so the REC fellow suggested I wait until I next upgraded to save money/hassle. Since I was planning to upgrade soon that made sense. Whew, sorry if that part was confusing! I think I need to look into the 100-ton mate qualifications a bit more - my focus was really on the AB this time around.

  2. Then the evaluator approved my AB-Special, Lifeboatman, BST and the AB-Sail

  3. But a higher up evaluator then apparently said no to the AB-Sail and I got a phone message from the evaluator telling me about it.

  4. My next options are to call the evaluator to discuss why I should have the AB-sail, OR

  5. Write to them and say they can remove it from my application, at which point they will issue the AB-Special/Lifeboatman/BST part.

I realize that in a way the AB-Special “trumps” the AB-Sail, but, OTOH, I was looking at a job posting last summer on a sailing school vessel, and it specified that one had to have the AB-Sail. And I thought it might be something a little “different” that could not hurt, since much of my time has been under sail.

It’s great to have the interest and responses to the thread. Thank you!

CD

20

[QUOTE=Robert;46007]Policy letter 13-02 is no longer in effect. In fact 46 CFR 12.02-11(a)(1) says definitely no. “[B]An MMC with a deck officer endorsement will authorize the holder to serve in any rating capacity in the deck department[/B], except able seaman. If a deck officer qualifies as able seaman, the MMC will be endorsed with the appropriate able seaman and lifeboatman endorsement. [B]STCW endorsements as RFPNW and PSC will also be entered upon qualification[/B]”.[/QUOTE]

Robert,

Could I ask you a question about this? I’m the type of person who researches and figures things out, but I have to admit that much of the mariner’s license info has me a bit stumped! It can be very confusing :confused:

Could you (or anyone else) tell me more about the bolded parts?

  1. Does “deck officer endorsement” mean Master, even if for small tonnage (50 in my case)?

  2. Does that mean I could qualify for … other things besides AB?

  3. I went to school/tested for AB and passed, so I now have my application in for AB-Special.

  4. I did not take a class/test for RFPNW, because from what I could figure out, that meant I had a year to get a certain number of hours on a larger vessel and complete the assessments, and I had no idea whether I would be able to do that or not (job wise), so I did not get the RFPNW. But what is that last bolded sentence in your quote telling me? Something that I have not been able to figure out?

I hope it’s not just me :p, but so far the various regs, qualifications, letters, etc. have me feeling a bit stupider than I like to think I am. Heh.

Basically, I am hoping to find a job/career path on a commercial vessel of some type, and I’m trying to make myself as employable as possible (on paper; of course I know that the real me is also taken into account… but paper helps too). So to that end, I am trying to add anything that I deserve (not trying to add anything sneaky or the like).

CD