SCBA Usage

RE: SCBAs (self-contained breathing apparatus) aboard ship and training.
How many SCBAs/air bottles do you have aboard your vessel, and how often do you use the bottles to train with during a voyage?

At the company I work with the standard is to have 4 SCBAs and a total of 24 air bottles aboard. The company training standard is to completely use 3 bottles of air per 24-day voyage in drills. The theory behind this is that SCBA usage is hazardous, and without actual constant training in their use, and in changing bottles, using SCBAs during an actual emergency can lead to loss of life.

I was speaking with a fellow mariner I used to work with. He says that at his company the SCBA bottles are never used in shipboard training. On his boat SCBAs are donned for fire drills, but no one breathes the air (I called it “play-acting”. He called me a ‘pretentious douche’—OK, not that, something more to the point). He is OK with not training on compressed air. He argues that there are only so many air bottles aboard, and he would rather have more bottles in an emergency, at the cost of less training. I argue that it would be wiser not to do a direct attack on a fire, unless your crew was trained monthly in actually using SCBAs (in other words breathing the air out of the bottles, and changing them). I say yearly fire simulator training in this regard just teaches you enough to be a danger to yourself. He countered that that might be the case for people with my limited mentality, but that those in the deeper-end of the gene pool will be just fine.

So what is the actual practice in the rest of the industry?

It’s been more than a few years so I don’t remember the number of bottles we had on an MSC ammo ship (USNS Supply) but we had plenty of them and the drills included breathing using the SCBAs as intended. We actually did have a fire in the stack insulation shortly after it was installed in the yard in Charleston. When the fire broke out, we were alongside the Navy ammo pier in Leonardo so the fire trucks rolled right up to us but we had it under control by the time they arrived. I was damn proud of the crew’s response, there was no hesitation. On another MSC ship (survey) and Mearsk box ship, play acting.
I’m in agreement with you. Training should be as realistic as you can make it.

Many Offshore vessels and others I have inspected for various reasons have had special BA Compressors to re-charge the cylinders.
Filters has to be checked for oil contamination and air quality has to be check by an external source once a year however.

[QUOTE=ombugge;190373]Many Offshore vessels and others I have inspected for various reasons have had special BA Compressors to re-charge the cylinders.
Filters has to be checked for oil contamination and air quality has to be check by an external source once a year however.[/QUOTE]
Years ago I worked on a factory trawler that had the same set-up. But there was no training in using the 3000 psi BA compressor, and the captain’s view was that we stood a good chance of blowing up a bottle, hence a crew member, if we tried using the compressor–so it never got used, and in an emergency would have been useless.
I have thought of putting a breathing air compressor aboard ship. But in an emergency whoever had enough brains to be trustworthy enough to handle a 3000 PSI BA compressor would be better utilized fighting the fire (nine-person crew). Since the compartment the compressor would be located in could very likely be filled with smoke in short order, and rendered useless, it seems to me the money spent on the compressor would be better utilized buying a lot more bottles, having them ready at hand.
My opinion only.

[QUOTE=freighterman;190374]Years ago I worked on a factory trawler that had the same set-up. But there was no training in using the 3000 psi BA compressor, and the captain’s view was that we stood a good chance of blowing up a bottle, hence a crew member, if we tried using the compressor–so it never got used, and in an emergency would have been useless.[/QUOTE]

We’ve had Bauer air compressors on most of the drillships I worked aboard and used SCBA’s during some (but not all) drills usually along with a smoke machine. My view is the more realistic you can make the training the better plus some guys get claustrophobic using compressed air and it’s a good idea to identify those individuals before a real fire happens.

Yes, the compress can be dangerous but the purpose built ones from good manufacturers (like Bauer)have multiple safety mechanisms. The only dangers I’ve witnessed were from AB’s using tools on valves labeled “hand-tighten-only” and once when the wind shifted and blew exhaust from the crane near the unit. There are certainly more dangerous pieces of equipment on board every ship.

That said… while compressors are great for topping off bottles and using SCBA’s during drills they are of little use in a real emergency because they are very slow. There is no way you could keep up with the air demands of one hose team let alone multiple. For this reason, on two of my ships, I designed and built cascade systems. Cascade systems are what firhouses and dive shops use… they are basically a compressor fix mounted to multiple large air bottles. The compressor keeps the large air bottle topped off but does not fill the SCBA bottle directly. Instead you fill the SCBA bottles from the large air bottles.

A well designed Cascade system is safer too but I’ll let you do your own research to find out more.

Fire teams should definitely be put on air during drills. The crew having confidence in the equipment and thier skills is important. Everyone’s IQ is going to drop about 50% in an emergency so training is key.

I don’t know how many bottles we have, a shit load. We also have a compressor for topping up the bottles used in training. It’s not for use during a fire, I believe fire departments use a cascade system to fill tanks on the go. The one we have is way to slow to be of any use in a fire.

I renewed my firefighting CoC a couple months ago. I have never (knock wood) had to fight an unplanned fire. I have done the training 3 or 4 times… And I did develope a fear of the mask and the valve because my first trainings were so slap-dash and never re-enforced at work. This last time, we did a good hard, long training where I got to use and take care of the BA for hours over the course of the week. I overcame my fear through familiarity. What-ever the system, bottles should be refillable on board, I feel. An air compressor is something that I understand and can deal with in a logical, safe way. A BA can cause someone to panic if they aren’t very good friends with it.

[QUOTE=Emrobu;190381]I renewed my firefighting CoC a couple months ago. [/QUOTE]

When you’re off air and on your way to the drill location and your mask fogs up, go on air, take one or two breaths and it will clear your mask.

Then go off air. When the Mate berates you for going on air without being told to, shout as loud as you can “I’m clearing my mask! I took 2 breaths and now I’m off air!!” then, under your breath, “You stupid asshole!”

Or you could spend some time practicing putting the mask on only when you need to go on air. This avoids walking around with the mask on.

Not intending to berate the US way but…

In the UK everyone that works on a commercial vessel is required to complete the basic STCW95 training. Here I understand it’s not required until a 500 ton license? They have all experienced scba to some degree - probably varies between training providers though.

The company I was working for paid for my (now) wife, then fiancée to do the course as she was on board with me. In US job market it has given her the edge with the CPR/ first aid and amazed people she can deal with a fire.

W.

[QUOTE=freighterman;190374]Years ago I worked on a factory trawler that had the same set-up. But there was no training in using the 3000 psi BA compressor, and the captain’s view was that we stood a good chance of blowing up a bottle, hence a crew member, if we tried using the compressor–so it never got used, and in an emergency would have been useless.
I have thought of putting a breathing air compressor aboard ship. But in an emergency whoever had enough brains to be trustworthy enough to handle a 3000 PSI BA compressor would be better utilized fighting the fire (nine-person crew). Since the compartment the compressor would be located in could very likely be filled with smoke in short order, and rendered useless, it seems to me the money spent on the compressor would be better utilized buying a lot more bottles, having them ready at hand.
My opinion only.[/QUOTE]

Not SCBA, but SCUBA. . . I worked on a dive boat active on a treasure hunt and we installed and maintained a compressor to keep the bottles filled. Best way to not get hurt should a bottle let go is to place the bottles in a garbage can full of water when filling. . .I remember the lead diver was filling his bail out bottle in the open and had a bottle failure. Just a small hole in the bottle, but his calf got peppered with shrapnel. . . you can bet he always filled every bottle in the garbage can after that. . . .

When I was C/M I made a few trips with one captain that liked to get the drills over with quickly. That left me feeling a little uneasy about the SCBA training.

What I did was, at the end of the drill, while the gear was being stowed I’d pull the fire teams aside and go over the SCBA together with them. They appreciated not being rushed and not being under scrutiny.

Now what we do is, sometime before the drill, we give the guys that suit up 15 or 20 minutes of separate training if we can. This way they don’t have to fumble around in front of the crew and the key people get a little extra training without wasting the time of the rest of the crew.

We have Bauer dive compressors on all our ships (as we do dive operations). Number of bottles vary per ship as the ships vary in size. We generally don’t go on air during drills. That depends on how realistic the head honchos want things to be. I am generally in the MCS these days during fire drills so I don’t get to see firsthand what goes on any more.

“Or you could spend some time practicing putting the mask on only when you need to go on air.This avoids walking around with the mask on.”

My answer: Sorry, it don’t work that way.

Interesting that so many people say they don’t know how many bottles are aboard. At the risk of being a pretentious douche, it seems to me the question of bottle number is important, and should be based on some rationale.

On our vessels the number of SCBA bottles is set at 24 for a reason. The plan is to have two fire teams of two members each, rotating in and out of a direct attack on a fire. Each team fights for a fixed period of 10 minutes, then rotates out. That means each team can operate for a total of 60 minutes on air, albeit being rotated in and out of the hot zone for 10 minutes at a time, for a grand total of 2 hours of direct attack. In our annual crew fire fighting training (and we train as entire crews) we’ve found that by the end of the 6th bottle firefighters are physically spent, and unable to safely mount more of an attack, even if there was BA available. In fact, in training many people fold from physical exhaustion, heat exhaustion, or general distress, well before the 6th bottle, pointing out the physical stress on the firefighters. With a fire department ashore, exhausted firefighters would be rotated out, and fresh personnel rotated in. At sea this is impractical, at least with the realities of a 8-9 people crew.

So, in another sense, the number of 24 bottles on our boats is a go/no-go gauge to the captain: all your SCBA bottles empty? You’ve reached the safe limit of direct attack. Time to fall back to boundary closures, cooling bulkheads, using the last of the fixed systems, and prepare to abandon ship.

My point is that there is a rationale behind the 24 bottles number, for one particular operation. Is there similar thinking out there that comes up with another number, for a different operation? Of course, if you have the wherewithal to put 100-200 SCBA bottles aboard, quantity becomes its own rationale.

[QUOTE=freighterman;190415]Interesting that so many people say they don’t know how many bottles are aboard. At the risk of being a pretentious douche, it seems to me the question of bottle number is important, and should be based on some rationale. …

exhaustion, or general distress, well before the 6th bottle, pointing out the physical stress on the firefighters. With a fire department ashore, exhausted firefighters would be rotated out, and fresh personnel rotated in. At sea this is impractical, at least with the realities of a 8-9 people crew.

So, in another sense, the number of 24 bottles on our boats is a go/no-go gauge to the captain: all your SCBA bottles empty? You’ve reached the safe limit of direct attack. Time to fall back to boundary closures, cooling bulkheads, using the last of the fixed systems, and prepare to abandon ship.

My point is that there is a rationale behind the 24 bottles number, for one particular operation. Is there similar thinking out there that comes up with another number, for a different operation? Of course, if you have the wherewithal to put 100-200 SCBA bottles aboard, quantity becomes its own rationale.[/QUOTE]

The thinking is to get the fire out as quickly as possible. For the E/R or cargo spaces if the fire can’t be put out by the fire teams within 10 or 20 minutes max the plan is to retreat and used the fixed system. It’s hard to envision a scenario where we would be still sending in teams into a space protected with a fixed system after 30 minutes. The longer the fight the more heat build-up, damage and risk to the crew.

We have a fixed low-pressure CO2 which can be augmented with sea water if required.

[QUOTE=Kennebec Captain;190418]The thinking is to get the fire out as quickly as possible. For the E/R or cargo spaces if the fire can’t be put out by the fire teams within 10 or 20 minutes max the plan is to retreat and used the fixed system. It’s hard to envision a scenario where we would be still sending in teams into a space protected with a fixed system after 30 minutes…[/QUOTE]

On an inspected vessel, perhaps yes. But on an uninspected vessel, likely no.

As you know, uninspected U.S. vessels may have substantial amounts of combustibles in their make-up: plywood/ formica paneling and overheads, foam insulation, etc. Some people may take issue with the existence of these combustibles in their structure, but it is still a fact, and must be dealt with in planning for firefighting. Since SCBA usage is key to firefighting, SCBA training can be argued to more important on uninspected vessels than inspected vessels.

Once a fire starts on such a vessel—whether it be from a broken fuel line spraying fuel on a turbocharger in the engineroom, or an electrical short in wiring buried in foam insulation in a cargo hold, the fire very quickly becomes a Class-A fire traveling behind bulkheads and through overheads, unseen by firefighters, hidden first by the nature of the construction, and then by smoke, quickly moving upwards from lower decks to upper decks.

In fires aboard an uninspected vessel of this sort, I advocate using the fixed system FIRST, if provided at the original seat of the fire. The hope is to instantly knock down the fire before it moves to surrounding combustibles, and then upwards to higher decks. Others will disagree, and advocate using the fixed system as a last resort. I point to the P/V Galaxy fire of 2003 and rest my case. If the crew had never gone near the fire and simply set of the fixed system likely the fire would have been extinguished and no one would have died.

It takes time for even the best fire teams to assemble and make a plan of action. If the fire gets into the bulkheads and overheads (and I am confining my remarks to uninspected vessels of a particular sort), while the fire teams are assembling, they have let themselves in for a knockdown, long drawn-out mixture of direct attacks and indirect attacks with hose lines and extinguishers, while they tear out bulkheads and overheads, chasing down the fire. This has been the case with a number of fires in Alaskan waters. In most cases the fire wins.

The phenomenon of fires travelling within walls is not specific to ships. It occurs in shoreside structures also. The fire axes we have aboard ship may have a lot of theoretical purposes. Good marine firefighting schools teach you how to use them in a specific technique used by structural firefighters to quickly punch a hole in thick plywood bulkhead, so you can blast water in the space between it and the steel bulkhead to extinguish the actual seat of the fire.

On an uninspected vessels (which, I believe, make up the bulk of U.S. vessels) fixed systems are not commonly found outside of the engineroom, paint locker, and cargo holds. And sprinkler systems won’t reach a fire traveling within the bulkheads and overheads of the passageways and accomodations

All this points to the need for proper SCBA training and lots of bottles—or a realistic policy of abandoning ship early on. I know of one large tug company whose policy is to send their mariners to firefighting school; and yet they have a policy of not fighting a fire aboard the boat, but rather to abandon ship. Mixed message? Or pragmatism?

The system of rotating firefighters in the hot zone is a common one with structural firefighters, and should be adhered to, in my opinion, when it comes to a direct attack on a below-decks fire in the scenario I have described. The drawback of the technique is that it requires realistic training on an annual basis, with physically-fit personnel. The key is rotating the firefighters in and out of the hot zone on a rigid schedule (commonly 10 minutes). This gives a measure of safety to the firefighters, hopefully getting them topside before their low air alarms go off, and gives the fire commander (usually the chief mate) a degree of control over the crew, since he or she will have little control over the fire, at first. Then it’s a matter of SCBA training and a shitload of air bottles to put the fire out, more so than extinguishing agent.

The rotation technique takes time to learn—who’s doing the timing? how do you signal the firefighters their time is up? But it is a powerful technique whose foundation is proper SCBA usage. It prepares the crew for a prolonged battle. If you study actual cases of shipboard fires at sea you’ll learn that the crew often do everything right—to a point. Then the fire throws them a curveball and they panic and run. Poor training. Short-term mindset. Better to train crews to go into the event prepared for the long run. Or, alternatively, and rationally, confine them to indirect attacks. Or set off the fixed system early and often, and keep your distance.

Another key is for the captain, or company, to set guidelines as to when to stop firefighting and prepare to abandon ship. Rule of thumb in the scenario I have described: when the fire has spread to more than two decks, or if the fire seems to be cutting the crew off from the embarkation deck, it’s time to move towards the lifeboats/rafts. When the fire spreads to more than two decks it is usually too complex to fight. In such a case, even a veteran group of professional structural fire fighters would happily let the ship burn without a second thought, as long as no one was trapped below.

So how do I know all this? By working with structural firefighters for years in training seamen, and by studying the history of Alaskan marine firefighting. In particular you have to study the cases no one ever hears about, which are the successes. USCG and NTSB only document failure. Predictable but shortsighted. Many people know about the F/V Galaxy fire in 2003. 3 people died, in a textbook case of what not to do (and also an amazing story of heroism on the part of the captain and others). Yet few people remember the F/T Pacific Glacier in 2008, because it was a hands-down, epic Win. A textbook case of how to put out an intractable shipboard fire like the one described above. No one injured. Boat saved.

Without going through the whole story the fire started below decks and began spreading as described above. Most of the crew of about 106 souls were evacuated to other large fishing vessels that came to the 253’ LOA Pacific Glacier’s aid. Then the key crew, and trained crew members from the Good Samaritan vessels, prosecuted a direct attack through two smoke-filled decks, using 76 bottles of air, refilled from BA compressors aboard the Good Samaritan boats. They used the rotation technique, described above, among other things, hunting down fires as the flames raced through bulkhead and overheads. It took 12 HOURS of constant combat to extinguish the fire. The Pacific Glacier crews trained at the same firefighting school as the boats I work with, so I heard the details of the story from the captain and mate afterwards.

So, to sum up, in my opinion, if you are on an uninspected vessel with combustibles in her make-up have plenty of SCBAs, lots of bottles, and train on compressed air constantly. Or, equally valid, set off the fixed system early and realize your limitations.

Freighterman…that has to be one of the most thoughtful and well written posts I have ever encountered in this forum and I cannot thank you enough times for it. As a former master of the GALAXY myself, her tragic burning and ultimate loss was much too close to home for me. Every condition that existed in her in 2003 existed in 1989 thru 1994 when I served aboard her. The nature of that fire and the flawed response to it by the crew would not have been any different if it had happened to me. My running drills was terrible, onboard training non existent, physical (and mental) quality of firefighters lacking, painfully too little gear for them to use, the rest of the crew oblivious to what they needed to do if the bells started to ring at zero dark thirty. I could easily see that same fire engulfing the entire vessel and killing far more than only three.

Regarding the PACIFIC GLACIER’s fire, I had not studied it myself because it was not so close to home for me and that I had been out of the fisheries for more than a dozen years by that point. Now I know I must read all I can find about that incident to see what they did right and opposed to all that was done wrong on the GALAXY.

btw, if you are in town let’s have a beer in Ballard sometime and I’ll give you a tour of the DAUNTLESS…

[QUOTE=freighterman;190420]On an inspected vessel, perhaps yes. But on an uninspected vessel, likely no.

As you know, uninspected U.S. vessels may have substantial amounts of combustibles in their make-up: plywood/ formica paneling and overheads, foam insulation, etc. Some people may take issue with the existence of these combustibles in their structure, but it is still a fact, and must be dealt with in planning for firefighting. Since SCBA usage is key to firefighting, SCBA training can be argued to more important on uninspected vessels than inspected vessels.

[/QUOTE]

You’ve done a lot thinking about fire fighting/safety on the fisheries vessels.

As far the question of direct attack vs indirect etc, as master I am not given the problem of designing the fire-fighting approach that will be used, rather there is a long established (albeit evolving) system/procedures already in place to follow.

Even if I did disagree with the established approach (I don’t) it would be presumptuous (also physically and legally risky) on my part to decide that the system in place is incorrect and change to a system of my own design.

Big RO/ROs depend on fixed systems, a lot of effort is put into making sure all the elements needed to use the fixed system are ready to operate as designed. Given the size of the spaces involved, the fire load, value of the ship and cargo, risk to the crew, resources available that’s not likely to change.

But alas, no definite info from any mariners on the number of SCBAs and bottles aboard their boats. I didn’t know it was sensitive information. Right up there, I guess, with the Big Three of Don’t-Ask-A-Sailor: How much do you make? What flavor of porn is on your tablet? and, Is that really Aqua Velva in that bottle?