Question on towing endorsement?

I believe the wording of the TOAR is “tow” not “barge”. I know of people who have gotten a TOAR signed off by using another tug as the “tow”. They tow it astern on a hawser, tow it alongside, dock it, etc. They have NEVER in their career worked a barge but are now “qualified” to do so. Plus, just completing the TOAR doesn’t make one proficient at the tasks in question. Maybe it is better than allowing someone with no towing experience at all to jump at the helm but to me it doesn’t mean a whole lot.

[QUOTE=Capt. Schmitt;42975]I believe the wording of the TOAR is “tow” not “barge”. I know of people who have gotten a TOAR signed off by using another tug as the “tow”. They tow it astern on a hawser, tow it alongside, dock it, etc. They have NEVER in their career worked a barge but are now “qualified” to do so. Plus, just completing the TOAR doesn’t make one proficient at the tasks in question. Maybe it is better than allowing someone with no towing experience at all to jump at the helm but to me it doesn’t mean a whole lot.[/QUOTE]

Do you mean something like an AHTS?

The instances I am referring to are on ship assist tugs.

[QUOTE=Archimedes;42990]Do you mean something like an AHTS?[/QUOTE]

The instances I am referring to are on ship assist tugs.

My opinion: Completing a TOAR doesn’t mean you’re qualified to do anything. Completing a TOAR means that a Designated Examiner has observed you perform the TOAR assessments and in his opinion, at that time and at that place, you performed up to the standard used by that DE or the company. You’ve jumped through a hoop. If a company then chooses to put you in charge of a navigational watch, that’s between them and you. If you’re crazy enough to take the job without the necessary experience, and you’re willing to because of your arrogance and/or delusion place the safety of your shipmates in jeopardy, you’ll have to deal with that at some point in your career. No company out there forces you to sail on your license. If you’re ready for the job, great. But if you’re not, be honest with yourself and wait until you are. A pile of paper doesn’t ever replace experience. Just make sure you buy license insurance.

I have to say, as a DE this post is pretty indicative of the faults that can be exploited, manipulated and abused by an unprofessional DE.

[QUOTE=dougpine;43018]My opinion: Completing a TOAR doesn’t mean you’re qualified to do anything. Completing a TOAR means that a Designated Examiner has observed you perform the TOAR assessments and in his opinion, at that time and at that place, you performed up to the standard used by that DE or the company. You’ve jumped through a hoop. If a company then chooses to put you in charge of a navigational watch, that’s between them and you. If you’re crazy enough to take the job without the necessary experience, and you’re willing to because of your arrogance and/or delusion place the safety of your shipmates in jeopardy, you’ll have to deal with that at some point in your career. No company out there forces you to sail on your license. If you’re ready for the job, great. But if you’re not, be honest with yourself and wait until you are. A pile of paper doesn’t ever replace experience. Just make sure you buy license insurance.[/QUOTE]

That is my sentiment exactly.

I’m a DE, and have my own standards to which the people I’ve signed off can attest. I’m sure there are others out there who have lower and higher standards. At the end of the day, it is the person being assessed who bears the brunt of the responsibility for their performance throughout the rest of their career.

[QUOTE=dougpine;43041]I’m a DE, and have my own standards to which the people I’ve signed off can attest. I’m sure there are others out there who have lower and higher standards. At the end of the day, it is the person being assessed who bears the brunt of the responsibility for their performance throughout the rest of their career.[/QUOTE]

The TOAR is nothing more then a documented mininmum standard. No legitimate tug company is going to turn loose a master on their ship assist tugs, ATBs or line haul boats with out thoroughly vetting them. The liability exposure alone should prevent even stanchest practioners of the “what evers expedient school of manning”. This whole system (TOAR) while far from perfect is alot better than what we had before-nothing.

[QUOTE=tugmstr;43044]The TOAR is nothing more then a documented mininmum standard. No legitimate tug company is going to turn loose a master on their ship assist tugs, ATBs or line haul boats with out thoroughly vetting them. The liability exposure alone should prevent even stanchest practioners of the “what evers expedient school of manning”. This whole system (TOAR) while far from perfect is alot better than what we had before-nothing.[/QUOTE]

I never noticed any difference in the abilities of the captains and mates before or after implementation of the TOAR. It’s just one more layer in the growing bureaucracy. Tugs have always been “self cleansing” when it comes to one’s abilities. Keeping the loss of bone and hide to a minimum during the learning process is the difficult part.

[QUOTE=injunear;43068]I never noticed any difference in the abilities of the captains and mates before or after implementation of the TOAR. [/QUOTE]

Actually I do think there has been a difference since the TOAR concept started. There was (prior to TOAR) the ‘cross over’ from different industries to towing, which in a tight supply time allowed companies to promote/hire operators who had -0- experience on towing vessels. The Toar concept was supposed to require one year on towing vessels in a learning capacity, before one was able to stand their own watch.

However at AWO’s request and insistence the time was watered down to 30 days. I don’t think the requisite ‘stuff’ can be learned in 30 days. Not even 90. But, hey, what do I know?

[QUOTE=Capt. Schmitt;43017]The instances I am referring to are on ship assist tugs.[/QUOTE]

In these cases, there should be a limitation that restricts the lcense to ship-assist/harbor-assist operations. However, I understand that at one time some RECs may have been allowing the use of a ship-assist TOAR and not placing the limitation on the license. As far as I know, this is no longer the case and someone who can’t do the barge/towing parts of the TOAR as they are on a harbor-assist boat gets a restriction to harbor-assist operations.

[QUOTE=jdcavo;43101]In these cases, there should be a limitation that restricts the lcense to ship-assist/harbor-assist operations. However, I understand that at one time some RECs may have been allowing the use of a ship-assist TOAR and not placing the limitation on the license. As far as I know, this is no longer the case and someone who can’t do the barge/towing parts of the TOAR as they are on a harbor-assist boat gets a restriction to harbor-assist operations.[/QUOTE]

Yes, but they “completed” the whole TOAR by “towing” another tug. They did all the proper evolutions; at least, astern and alongside, and docked it, etc.

That is “NOT” the way to demonstrate the same “knowledge and skill set.” And if you think the DE who signed ‘them’ off did the industry a favor, then that DE is the problem.

I hold a Master 1600/3000 O/C …Dp Unlimited. I have been trying to get on a tug for years. I have a completed TOAR but need the 30 days to get the MOT. I will step down and work AB if it gets me in the door, I let this be known to all employers. Still NO LUCK. Any advice???

The position you are looking for is: “mate trainee.” in this economy most companies aren’t putting out the resources to hire these extra position. If you are expecting to be anointed in 30 days, then you will need to go onto a tug not as an AB, but as a trainee. OOC, how did you get a TOAR signed off by a DE if you WEREN’T on a towing vessel?

Dimond Marine Services: offers a TOAR program. They have an old railroad tug and a deck barge. And yes we did everything on the TOAR. The “DE” was very professional and adamant that we didn’t cut corners.

[QUOTE=Captnstabn;43374]Dimond Marine Services: offers a TOAR program. They have an old railroad tug and a deck barge. And yes we did everything on the TOAR. The “DE” was very professional and adamant that we didn’t cut corners.[/QUOTE]

How many days were you at the wheel to get this TOAR siogned off?? Those days would count against the “30” wouldn’t they?

[QUOTE=Captnstabn;43374]Dimond Marine Services: offers a TOAR program. They have an old railroad tug and a deck barge. And yes we did everything on the TOAR. The “DE” was very professional and adamant that we didn’t cut corners.[/QUOTE]
This reminds me of one trip as I was going past an academy. We were watching the guys in a 36’ motor whale boat out towing the paint raft around. I asked my tankerman what they were doing (as he was a recent alumni there) and he told me that was their practical “Towing Class.” Each one of the guys took a turn at the wheel of the whaleboat and rounded up (sort of) towed (sort of) and got some ‘real’ towing experience!

[QUOTE=cappy208;43406]This reminds me of one trip as I was going past an academy. We were watching the guys in a 36’ motor whale boat out towing the paint raft around. I asked my tankerman what they were doing (as he was a recent alumni there) and he told me that was their practical “Towing Class.” Each one of the guys took a turn at the wheel of the whaleboat and rounded up (sort of) towed (sort of) and got some ‘real’ towing experience![/QUOTE]

That’s more towing experience than all the newly minted 3rd mates had that I sailed with since Dec '69. Some of them turned out to be outstanding mates, captains, pilots and “suits”. The ones that survived their foray into the towing industry learned to be tugboat deckhands first.