[QUOTE=tugsailor;131637]Canada credits seatime over 25 Gross Tons I.T.C. toward an unlimited license. Most of the Canadian mariners that I meet (except the fishermen) have unlimited licenses.[/QUOTE]
The problem with the hawepipe route is that a mariner can take a license prep course and pass on the 8th try or whatever and get a unlimited 3rd. This is my beef.
Academy grads have a little sea time, some maritime training combined with bachelors degree. Having to get a degree acts as a screen that hopefully gets rid of the dumbest of the dumb.
The hawsepipe route to an unlimited license needs some screening. Maybe requiring some college credits?
I understand the need for some screening but I STILL think that the 1600-ton requirement needs to be lowered so that people who already have 1600-ton licenses can upgrade to unlimited. Every other level of licensing has some form of “leap-frogging” where the minimum required tonnage is lower than that of the next lowest license so that you can always sail on one license while upgrading to another. In the American system, unlimited tonnage is the only license where you can’t do that. I think that’s just plumb ridiculous.
[QUOTE=PaddyWest2012;131653]I understand the need for some screening but I STILL think that the 1600-ton requirement needs to be lowered so that people who already have 1600-ton licenses can upgrade to unlimited. Every other level of licensing has some form of “leap-frogging” where the minimum required tonnage is lower than that of the next lowest license so that you can always sail on one license while upgrading to another. In the American system, unlimited tonnage is the only license where you can’t do that. I think that’s just plumb ridiculous.[/QUOTE]
You might be right. My point is that getting the sea time and passing the exam alone is not enough. The deal with the school guys is that they had to get college credits at an accredited school. Maybe the hawepipe guys should have to as well.
[QUOTE=PaddyWest2012;131653]I understand the need for some screening but I STILL think that the 1600-ton requirement needs to be lowered so that people who already have 1600-ton licenses can upgrade to unlimited. Every other level of licensing has some form of “leap-frogging” where the minimum required tonnage is lower than that of the next lowest license so that you can always sail on one license while upgrading to another. In the American system, unlimited tonnage is the only license where you can’t do that. I think that’s just plumb ridiculous.[/QUOTE]
Yes, quite silly that someone who handles a big mudboat or tug/barge unit as master can’t go be a 3rd mate without jumping through hoops. Hell, throw in a 30-day training/observation period if you gotta!
[QUOTE=Kennebec Captain;131656]You might be right. My point is that getting the sea time and passing the exam alone is not enough. The deal with the school guys is that they had to get college credits at an accredited school. Maybe the hawepipe guys should have to as well.
I[/QUOTE]
There are already classes required for the chief mate/master upgrade so I guess it would make sense to require something similar to go from limited to 3-M/2-M, but the whole thing is sort of all for nought since there isn’t a great sea time route to upgrade on. I think we need to fix the sea time issue so that we’ll have a reason to fix the accreditation issue. Then we can go from there. Of course, the other reason this is all for nought is because the USCG won’t listen to a damn thing that makes sense.
[QUOTE=Kennebec Captain;131652]The hawsepipe route to an unlimited license needs some screening. Maybe requiring some college credits?[/QUOTE]
That screen door swings both ways. I’ve sure sailed with (and been managed by) many “educated idiots”.
[QUOTE=Kennebec Captain;131652]The problem with the hawepipe route is that a mariner can take a license prep course and pass on the 8th try or whatever and get a unlimited 3rd. This is my beef.
Academy grads have a little sea time, some maritime training combined with bachelors degree. Having to get a degree acts as a screen that hopefully gets rid of the dumbest of the dumb.
The hawsepipe route to an unlimited license needs some screening. Maybe requiring some college credits?[/QUOTE]
We need more serious up to date license exams (with unpublished exam questions) for both the academy and the hawespipe. The exam is supposed to be the screen that assures minimum competence. With grad inflation in college, and too many colleges of varying quality competing for too few students and their tuition dollars, a bachelors degree is no assurance of competence. Most colleges will see to it that anyone willing to keep paying tuition and make some effort eventually graduates. Many kids now take 5 years to graduate.
I would agree that a smart well educated guy needs a lot less seatime to learn the same skills than an average uneducated guy. A college degree should substitute for some seatime, but with STCW that is not possible.
I’m told that the license exams are much more difficult in Canada and Northern Europe. I have heard that maritime colleges in the UK typically offer a six month course to prepare hawespipers for the MCA license exam. (I recently had a Scotsman aboard who had both UK and US licenses). I have worked with a good number of European mariners over the years. Generally speaking, my observation is that they have much better formal training than we do (our academy grads included). But at the end of the day, common sense and the ability to make good decisions under pressure are what really counts. Regardless of differences in training, people are either born decision makers, or they’re not.
I’ve got a friend who never made it out of the 9th grade. He is now a 2nd mate/SDPO on a 6th gen drillship for one of the big players. He is also well respected and admired by his coworkers.
[QUOTE=Kennebec Captain;131652]The problem with the hawepipe route is that a mariner can take a license prep course and pass on the 8th try or whatever and get a unlimited 3rd. This is my beef.
Academy grads have a little sea time, some maritime training combined with bachelors degree. Having to get a degree acts as a screen that hopefully gets rid of the dumbest of the dumb.
The hawsepipe route to an unlimited license needs some screening. Maybe requiring some college credits?[/QUOTE]
Academies weed out the dumbest of the dumb? I cannot tell you how impressed I get when a new academy 3rd signs on and comes into the control room. In fact, i am so impressed by their degree that I keep a box of cookies to hand out to each one of the kids right before I instruct them not to go around anything that is hot, moving, or energized because I’m tired of filling out the accident reports. Quick list of academy gems I’ve dealt with over the years…“I’m allergic to petroleum products” aboard a tanker. “What’s paralleling a generator entail?” “I’m not sure if this is the front or back of this turbine blade”. It’s always a good thing to get the best education possible, but don’t think that makes you better than any of us. On the job experience is where you learn the difference between your ass and a hole in the ground, and a lot of us hawsepipe guys were out here getting plants on line in the real world while you were off playing sailor on one of your training ships partner.
SUNY has around a 33% six year graduation rate. They certainly weed out a lot of people as do the other schools. Although certainly anyone that hawsepipes is gonna be better at the job when they first get their license because they’ve already been pretty much doing that job for years. Who do you think was a better sailor back in 1800, the Bosun with 20 years experience or the 17 year old mate (or ensign or w.e) who just passed his license.
[QUOTE=bunker305;131702]Academies weed out the dumbest of the dumb? I cannot tell you how impressed I get when a new academy 3rd signs on and comes into the control room. In fact, i am so impressed by their degree that I keep a box of cookies to hand out to each one of the kids right before I instruct them not to go around anything that is hot, moving, or energized because I’m tired of filling out the accident reports. Quick list of academy gems I’ve dealt with over the years…“I’m allergic to petroleum products” aboard a tanker. “What’s paralleling a generator entail?” “I’m not sure if this is the front or back of this turbine blade”. It’s always a good thing to get the best education possible, but don’t think that makes you better than any of us. On the job experience is where you learn the difference between your ass and a hole in the ground, and a lot of us hawsepipe guys were out here getting plants on line in the real world while you were off playing sailor on one of your training ships partner.[/QUOTE]
They can surely operate a Pelican flashlight. That must be a requirement when you go the Academy route?
I’m not going to get into an academy VS. Hawsepipe, but I can use your exact same examples and go the other way and say the same about them. When I first got out of school and " got my cookie" I sailed with some good 1st who were hawsers. Showed me a lot of tricks of the trade. I also learned a lot of shit from wipers, juniors, and electricians along the way. Lately I have seen some pretty bad hawse pipers come out. I had one 3rd who went down to roll a dg over before starting it. He started it without cutting off the fuel, so she was firing with cocks open. OK happens to best of us. This guy jumps off the DG and runs over to the panel and opens the breaker to the pre lube pump and then stares in disbelief as to why the DG did not shut down. My academy second went over and pulled the fuel rack. When asked why he opened the breaker? Idk, I thought if I killed power it would stop running. So your saying the diesel generator was being run by the electrical panel? Yes. Hmmm
Again good and bad from both sides. If your guy doesn’t know what a turbine blade looks like or the theory on generator paralleling then his academy failed him. We did all that while in school sims, on the training ship, and I even did it on a commercial ship I cadet shipped on.
Regardless of what route you take the exam is a complete joke. Lights start to flicker we see the plant is about to go down. What do you do? The answer is B! There ya go your now qualified to sail third and assume a watch. I can give my wife the Mass Maritime books and in a couple weeks she can pass the test with flying colors.
[QUOTE=brjones;131720]Regardless of what route you take the exam is a complete joke. Lights start to flicker we see the plant is about to go down. What do you do? The answer is B! There ya go your now qualified to sail third and assume a watch. I can give my wife the Mass Maritime books and in a couple weeks she can pass the test with flying colors.[/QUOTE]
That’s party my point. Tugsailor and Paddy W have claimed that time on limited tonnage should count for an unlimited license At first I didn’t agree because of the difference between the jobs. I now think that they have a good point but I still think that a candidate has to demonstrate that he/she has the skill required. The test alone is insufficient to screen out the unqualified as you’ve said. This is less of a problem on she school side because having to get a degree keeps the floor a little higher
[QUOTE=Bloodyshitcakes;131678]I’ve got a friend who never made it out of the 9th grade. He is now a 2nd mate/SDPO on a 6th gen drillship for one of the big players. He is also well respected and admired by his coworkers.[/QUOTE]
What’s your point? That the CG should screen on a case by case basis?
[QUOTE=bunker305;131702]Academies weed out the dumbest of the dumb? I cannot tell you how impressed I get when a new academy 3rd signs on and comes into the control room. In fact, i am so impressed by their degree that I keep a box of cookies to hand out to each one of the kids right before I instruct them not to go around anything that is hot, moving, or energized because I’m tired of filling out the accident reports. Quick list of academy gems I’ve dealt with over the years…“I’m allergic to petroleum products” aboard a tanker. “What’s paralleling a generator entail?” “I’m not sure if this is the front or back of this turbine blade”. It’s always a good thing to get the best education possible, but don’t think that makes you better than any of us.[/QUOTE]
There’s a problem with your logic, it possible that the students who don’t make it through school are smarter and/or more qualified then the ones that go on to graduate and get their license but it’s not likely.
[QUOTE=bunker305;131702]a lot of us hawsepipe guys were out here getting plants on line in the real world while you were off playing sailor on one of your training ships partner.[/QUOTE]
I hope I’m not defeating my own argument here but I think part of the idea is that the sea time is also supposed to be part of the screening process. Obviously that does cut down on a lot of the idiots because they either learn or just can’t hack it, but clearly it’s not 100% effective.
[QUOTE=PaddyWest2012;131723]I hope I’m not defeating my own argument here but I think part of the idea is that the sea time is also supposed to be part of the screening process. Obviously that does cut down on a lot of the idiots because they either learn or just can’t hack it, but clearly it’s not 100% effective.[/QUOTE]
I always think about the captain I was with when I first sailed mate. It was sailing up the Inside Passage on a small break bulk freighter. I leaned a lot from Capt. Doug, he could navigate most places in Alaska by eye using local knowledge but he had his limits. He couldn’t sail anyplace he had never been unless the navigation was very simple.
As much as I admired Doug I do not think he would make a suitable unlimited third mate. I think to get a unlimited license you should have to demonstrate certain specific skill and in general the ability to solve problems which require abstract thinking.
[QUOTE=Kennebec Captain;131733]I always think about the captain I was with when I first sailed mate. It was sailing up the Inside Passage on a small break bulk freighter. I leaned a lot from Capt. Doug, he could navigate most places in Alaska by eye using local knowledge but he had his limits. He couldn’t sail anyplace he had never been unless the navigation was very simple.
As much as I admired Doug I do not think he would make a suitable unlimited third mate. I think to get a unlimited license you should have to demonstrate certain specific skill and in general the ability to solve problems which require abstract thinking.[/QUOTE]
When Doug was 30 years younger he probably would have picked up the skills necessary to be a third mate pretty quickly.
[QUOTE=tugsailor;131736]When Doug was 30 years younger he probably would have picked up the skills necessary to be a third mate pretty quickly.[/QUOTE]
Maybe, he’d have to do more then regurgitate a bunch of test questions to prove it though.
My point is that it is not the license that makes the Officer. I knew an academy guy who was absolutely befuddled by the idea of advancing a LOP for a running fix. We argued through almost an entire watch over this. How many college credit do you think he had?
I have no doubt that this friend of mine will be Master of his own ship before the age of 40 because of his drive to succeed and unmovable work ethic.